licensing fees - ACPO proposal

[widows son]

A totally incorrect statement from WS! BASC does not run DMQ – get your facts straight my facts are quite straight there in the same building !

Also I think your maths are wrong, last time I checked FAC’s run for 5 years not 1

But never mind at least you got your chance to jump on this thread and have a go at me and BASC…I don't jump on anywhere, the maths are not wrong it was to show a YEAR divide it by 5 it then comes to pennies

Regardless of whether it costs £50 or £200 the bottom line is that the service must improve,what service, you provide the the required information if it comes up to the requirement your issued a certificate I think all of us can agree on that.Why should we even tolerate an increase when the service delivery is not there?what type of service are you looking for i certainly cannot see whats required Ive never had any problem in all the years Ive had a certificate.

More importantly there must be across the board compliance with HO guidance and ACPO best practice. That would get rid of the excessive use of mentoring and ‘training’ conditions that some forces apply for example!well there you go something more worth while to get your teeth into

David

Just doesn't work for me the BASC are wasting our money chasing futile causes ,but in a few cases won't take on members firearm problems because of the cost to BASC ,there is nothing wrong with the current system in Scotland that I can see as for the cost I doesn't bother me if it were to go up ,just look at everything around you it is all going up ,move with the times.


There are people running all over the UK 5,6 and 700 miles a weekend to stalk with the current cost of fuel , the price of ammunition through the roof, your chasing a rise in the price of a certificate that hasn't risen for years .


Is this BASC trying to make there self look good, as the did when his nibs jumped on the national news after the killing of Innocent people wrong time wrong place to mention guns on TV.


Have you ever taken the time to ask people why there actually in BASC you'll find the biggest attraction is the insurance, it the only reason i'm a member .

 

[widows son]

So you guys are going to stand shoulder to shoulder for a co term certificate that costs £1.07 per day or £1952 over the 5 years...good luck with that one. I think you will be on your own.your maths is wrong thats 1.07 per week NOT per DAY £333.84 for 5 years

Seriously if the licensing teams had to stick to the HO guidance then they cannot add on silly conditions that simply cause aggravation and expense to the shooter but which do nothing to protect public safety. That’s the important point and one that I think a couple have missed in their eagerness to swipe at BASC.

You may or may not know that this consistency of approach to the HO guidance is common policy between the NGO and BASC, and I am yet to hear of any other shooting organization who would not agree with this.

Z Plex, I will ask and let you know.

David

Easy to hit the wrong botton David go and do a kata help slow you down .

 

[Taff]

It is cheap at today's prices,I pay more for my gun club membership, but you are forgetting you pay for it out of your taxes, to compare it to a rod license is stupid, as the money from rod licenses goes to EA who stock rivers, monitor pollution etc in river you can fish, the FAC and SC is to allegedly to protect the public. BASC are right in seeking a level and sensibly playin field throughout the country.
WS to say iv,e never had a problem is great, I never have either, but for new entrants to shooting the police do make it more difficult

 

[timbrayford]

I think the essential point that some contributors here are missing is that the shooting community has been presented by circumstances with a negotiating position:- ACPO has IMO reasonably asked for an increase in fees and the BASC and NGO have also IMO asked what the shooting community is getting in return, whilst drawing to the attention of the authorities to potential improvements and efficiencies in the administration of the Firearms Act. Ok even if the current situation in Scotland is satisfactory do bear in mind that England and Scotland are on diverging constitutional paths with the Scottish Government actively seeking controlsof its' own firearms laws.

 

[starr shot]

this seems more than rumour as avon and somerset seem set on redudancies in april 2012

 

[widows son]

I think the essential point that some contributors here are missing is that the shooting community has been presented by circumstances with a negotiating position:- ACPO has IMO reasonably asked for an increase in fees and the BASC and NGO have also IMO asked what the shooting community is getting in return, whilst drawing to the attention of the authorities to potential improvements and efficiencies in the administration of the Firearms Act. Ok even if the current situation in Scotland is satisfactory do bear in mind that England and Scotland are on diverging constitutional paths with the Scottish Government actively seeking controlsof its' own firearms laws.

Can we have control of our country first then the taxes , and our oil, and our water, and our wind power, then we can consider the firearms.

The English can keep 1966 it was a hand ball anyway .lol

merry Christmas.

 

[Apache]

I'd much rather BASC pushed for quality of service rather than consistency. If some police forces (my local one is Northern Constabulary, for whom I have nothing but praise for a sensible, practical, highly efficient and responsive service) can get it right, why not simply take the best examples and follow them? To do otherwise invites a solution that drags everything down to the lowest common denominator.

My greatest fear, I have said the same in a response over on PW.

The forces we get the least complaints about are: Northants, Norfolk, Suffolk and N Yorks.

I am full of praise for North Yorks, no complaints here.

Of course if we were to campaign for section 1 controls to be dispensed with in favour of section 2 for Rifles than all this expensive and police time consuming nonsense could be done away with

Is the BASC campaigning for this? That would be excellent.

 

[timbrayford]

Can we have control of our country first then the taxes , and our oil, and our water, and our wind power, then we can consider the firearms.

The English can keep 1966 it was a hand ball anyway .lol

merry Christmas.

Slightly off topic but really this is a matter for Scotland and its' people. Coming from an offshore island myself I too can appreciate the desire for independence. atb Tim

 

[enfieldspares]

Shotguns are less lethal!!! I'll stand 200m away from you whilst you take a punt at me with your shottie and then I'll pop back with my 30-06. We can even introduce a wooden door or similar for cover if you like.

Sorry wrong! Figures don't reflect this. Name ONE INCIDENT in which a lawfully held full-bore rifle held on an FAC has been used in any crime involving murder or wounding? None! Not even I would suggest one stolen from a lawful owner!

Yet by contrast lawfully held s2 shot guns are use all too often in cases of murder and wounding as are those stolen from lawful owners.

As far as crime figures for murder and wounding go, s1 full bore bolt action stalking and target rifles, whether legally held or illegally held, simply do not feature.

Also I much prefer to deal with a local police force whom I know and who know me rather than with a centralised bureaucratie.

Ah yes, except that some, Staffordshire, have "force policy" that will not allow any Staffs resident to have a "heritage pistol" stored at a designated shooting site...such as Bisley or Leicester or etc.

So that's all OK if you have a reasonable force but if yours is unreasonable you have no redress save an impossibly expensive legal process or to move out of that force area!

Just my 2p worth.

 

[JabaliHunter]

I think arguing for lesser controls on firearms would be counter-productive, but if there is to be a fee increase, then it should be reasonably argued that it is unnecessarily bureaucratic and futile for FAC holders to have to pay extra for a SGC in addition.

 

[mollydog]

i think when the police can get the criminals to pay for the service they receive from the police then they should start to look at the law abiding people like us for more money

 

[timbrayford]

I think arguing for lesser controls on firearms would be counter-productive, but if there is to be a fee increase, then it should be reasonably argued that it is unnecessarily bureaucratic and futile for FAC holders to have to pay extra for a SGC in addition.

I don't think anyone is suggesting lesser controls but the difference between for instance section 1 + 2 of the Firearms Act is largely bureaucratic. The "fit to be entrusted & good character", background checks etc. apply both to S1+S2 and surely this is the essentially good part of the Act. I don't see how the authorities can reasonably argue that a shooter is safe to be entrusted with a shotgun but not a rifle. ACPO has recently suggested to the Government that they want a unified Certificate but is there any logical reason why this should not be based around S2 ? I think the only thing of real merit in S1 absent from S2 is the requirement for recreational shooters to be members of and regular attenders at a recognised shooting club.

 

[David63]

We did push for Section 2 controls on Section 1 in our response to the HASC.

The fact is, as we have seen, some licensing teams are very good indeed, quick turn around of applications and renewals, no restrictive and pointless conditions on certificates. If that’s your experience with your licensing team you are lucky!

Others though are not so lucky, far form it. They have to suffer slow processing of applications and renewals, silly errors on certificates that make them meaningless and the imposition of stupid restrictions that place greater burden and restrictions on the shooter.

For example:
Over 9 months for a simple renewal
Over 12 months for a land check
Issue date of the certificate was AFTER the expiry date
Conditioned that the rifle could only be used from a high seat
Refusal to allow 243 for fox and deer
Insistence on training for an experienced rifle shot just to add ‘deer’ to his certificate
The list goes on and on…..

It’s simply not right in the first place to provide such a lousey service, but then to ask for more money for the same shoddy service is frankly not on!

As we can see several licensing teams have got it right, there is thus no reasons at al that the others can’t do the same.

Let’s get the system running properly and efficiently, and then look at the costs.

WS – sorry cant do Kata any more, bad training injury last year means no more karate for me.

DMQ admin centre for correspondence is at Marford Mill but the Ch Exec / board etc not here, BASC has no more say in the management of DMQ than anyone else who is a partner organisation with DMQ.

Best wishes to all

David

 

[timbrayford]

We did push for Section 2 controls on Section 1 in our response to the HASC.

The fact is, as we have seen, some licensing teams are very good indeed, quick turn around of applications and renewals, no restrictive and pointless conditions on certificates. If that’s your experience with your licensing team you are lucky!

Others though are not so lucky, far form it. They have to suffer slow processing of applications and renewals, silly errors on certificates that make them meaningless and the imposition of stupid restrictions that place greater burden and restrictions on the shooter.

For example:
Over 9 months for a simple renewal
Over 12 months for a land check
Issue date of the certificate was AFTER the expiry date
Conditioned that the rifle could only be used from a high seat
Refusal to allow 243 for fox and deer
Insistence on training for an experienced rifle shot just to add ‘deer’ to his certificate
The list goes on and on…..

It’s simply not right in the first place to provide such a lousey service, but then to ask for more money for the same shoddy service is frankly not on!

As we can see several licensing teams have got it right, there is thus no reasons at al that the others can’t do the same.

Let’s get the system running properly and efficiently, and then look at the costs.

WS – sorry cant do Kata any more, bad training injury last year means no more karate for me.

DMQ admin centre for correspondence is at Marford Mill but the Ch Exec / board etc not here, BASC has no more say in the management of DMQ than anyone else who is a partner organisation with DMQ.

Best wishes to all

David

I am reassured to see that BASC is pursuing the idea of Section 2 for rifles, I hope that in 2012 they will, with the support of the shooting community in general, be able to progress the matter further. atb Tim

 

[adjman]

Just written the following to my MP

"Dear Mr Herbert,

I have recently read in the shooting media that the Association of Chief Officers of Police are proposing an increase to the cost of Shotgun and Firearms certificate applications and renewals. This is understandable as the cost of everything is increasing and I can understand the police time involved with such tasks.


However, I would appreciate the government considering the level of service provided by Police Services when processing and approving these certificates. Currently there are distinct differences between the way regional Police Services process these applications and the way they respond to them. It is not unusual for some Police Services to turn around an application in a just a couple of weeks, however other Police Services take months to respond. If the cost of application is to rise, I would think it reasonable to expect a consistent level of service from all Police Services across the country.


It is also most important that the Police Services are unified in their approach to Firearms licensing. It is very often the case that strange conditions are placed upon Firearms Certificates which have no bearing on public safety and only cause issues for the license holder, often incurring more cost on their behalf. The Home Office Guidelines for Police on Firearms Licensing are very clear and simple to understand, however they are often interpreted by the Police Service in very strange ways. If we are to pay more for our certificates, I would think it reasonable to expect a consistent approach to the use of the Home Office Guidelines in relation to Firearms.


It is very important that public safety is paramount when considering these laws and the legislation that surrounds them, however this is also a service to some of the most law abiding and upstanding members of society and therefore I think it is reasonable for us to expect fair treatment and high levels of service in this matter.


I look forward to hearing from you regarding this issue.


Many thanks


Adam Collett"

Hope it does some good

 

[David63]

Thank you

 

[geordieh]

Can we have control of our country first then the taxes , and our oil, and our water, and our wind power, then we can consider the firearms.

The English can keep 1966 it was a hand ball anyway .lol

merry Christmas.

Hi WS
Please hurry but we keep the oil rigs, windmills and you get Tony Bliar and Gordon Brown back too.And when we repatriate all you sweaties back north you pay the dole bill, you will be bankrupt by the end of the first week
Geordie
Ps It may have been handball but the history books show that we won and thats what counts, just like Culloden Flodden and the battle of Dunbar when your lot could not get out of bed in time to do a days work(not changed much)

 

[widows son]

Hi WS
Please hurry but we keep the oil rigs, windmills I wonder why £££££££ after all, what revenue would you have after all the English government has all but killed off any industry that Britain were the fore runners in, which all now work out of the use to be colonised countries which are all independent and doing extremely well and you get Tony Bliar send him to the USA they like him and Gordon Brown He has always lived in Fife back too. And when we repatriate all you sweaties back north you pay the dole bill, you will be bankrupt by the end of the first week does that mean you'll have back all the English interlopers .Jayb pack your bag .
Geordie
Ps It may have been handball but the history books show that we won Raw nerve LOL and thats what counts, just like Culloden Flodden and the battle of Dunbar Highland clearances we want everything get off when your lot could not get out of bed in time to do a days work(not changed much)

Can we also keep tar macadam television telephone and hundreds of other key inventions that make the world a better place.

Ah Geordie I do feel for the English .Scotland's Regiments have been at the front of every major campaign since the were formed have a wee look at some of the accolades that have came back home with them,now lets not take anything from the English line Regiments that hold hundreds of accolades and traditions but the English government sacked and merged a lot of them and hung the rest of the colours up just as they have now done with the Scottish divisions regiments .


All this for a hand ball wow. lol

Don't you be kicking the cat over this, it's only light hearted banter I know nothing about football and actually hate the game and the crap that follows it with a passion.

 

[finnbear270]

Just written the following to my MP

"Dear Mr Herbert,

I have recently read in the shooting media that the Association of Chief Officers of Police are proposing an increase to the cost of Shotgun and Firearms certificate applications and renewals. This is understandable as the cost of everything is increasing and I can understand the police time involved with such tasks.


However, I would appreciate the government considering the level of service provided by Police Services when processing and approving these certificates. Currently there are distinct differences between the way regional Police Services process these applications and the way they respond to them. It is not unusual for some Police Services to turn around an application in a just a couple of weeks, however other Police Services take months to respond. If the cost of application is to rise, I would think it reasonable to expect a consistent level of service from all Police Services across the country.


It is also most important that the Police Services are unified in their approach to Firearms licensing. It is very often the case that strange conditions are placed upon Firearms Certificates which have no bearing on public safety and only cause issues for the license holder, often incurring more cost on their behalf. The Home Office Guidelines for Police on Firearms Licensing are very clear and simple to understand, however they are often interpreted by the Police Service in very strange ways. If we are to pay more for our certificates, I would think it reasonable to expect a consistent approach to the use of the Home Office Guidelines in relation to Firearms.


It is very important that public safety is paramount when considering these laws and the legislation that surrounds them, however this is also a service to some of the most law abiding and upstanding members of society and therefore I think it is reasonable for us to expect fair treatment and high levels of service in this matter.


I look forward to hearing from you regarding this issue.


Many thanks


Adam Collett"

Hope it does some good

Excellently put,just hope it is received with the same intelligence quotion.

 

[David63]

I could not agree more about football..now rugby, thats another matter all together!