Long range lead free experience please?

[Adyb]

Hi all, sorry for covering old ground but I'd been v grateful to hear from anyone who has persisted and got decent results from lead free at longer ranges (300and up if poss)

I'm specifically looking at switching to copper for alpine mountain stalks in wolf country, chamois, mouflon, reds, occasional boar. Calibers I'm using currently are 270 and 7mmRM.

Tested trophy copper and rws hit (nowhere near enough expansion). Ttsx (a bit better..)..
I note that the new Norma Evostrike boxes seem to be marketed directly at this application - justified....?

Thanks

 

[308tikka]

Id give @Virtus Precision UK a call/email. All their hunting line are developed from excellent long range projectiles. Good BCs and there are three models to choose from depending on terminal velocity where required.

 

[Bowland blades]

well all i can say is if i get great controlled expansion with 100 grain Barnes TTSX from close up to 350 or so with a 3200 muzzle speed from the .260 you sure shouldn't struggle with a 7mm rem mag so long as you don't go too heavy or too slow.

 

[Adyb]

That's great feedback thanks, exactly what I was after. Indeed TTSX seems most promising so far.

 

[jb7x57]

Yew tree tipped models seem to be getting good reviews

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

I would be looking at the @Virtus Precision UK Merlin for that application.
As a fragmenting design designed to perform down to 1500 FPS it would be ideal for this use. I’ve tested them personally in .30 cal down to 2100FPS and they were still producing very good wound channels with DRT kills.

The sole disadvantage is mess close in.


The Barnes without doubt will function well providing you keep the terminal velocity above 2200 FPS which is where I find the performance starts to drop off (used them in 6.5, 7mm and .30 cal), providing you respect this limit they function very well.
In a 7RM using the 120 TTSX, even with a pretty meagre muzzle velocity of 3211 FPS (I know of guys pushing these at 3400+ in 7RM using RL22) you’ll have to stretch beyond 370m to dip below the 2200FPS limit. (Figures based on applied ballistics)

Hope this is helpful.

Ben

 

[User00040]

@Sakoodin1 uses the 7RM and Barnes LRX 129

 

[One on top of two]

I use Barnes 127 LRX

 

[Adyb]

@Sakoodin1 uses the 7RM and Barnes LRX 129

Thanks, picked up his post on subject from that. Clear +vote

 

[paul o']

130 fox @ 3037 .270 max shot to date a tad under 300 dropped in its tracks shoulder shot .

 

[User00040]

130 fox @ 3037 .270 max shot to date a tad under 300 dropped in its tracks shoulder shot .

Did you have to hold the rifle at a 30 degree angle?

 

[paul o']

You must have a creedmoor

 

[Utectok]

The only thing I found works is yew tree tlr. I’ve been shooting 6.5mm 114gn and killed roe deer too 440m effectively and reds to 340m

 

[Bowland blades]

The only thing I found works is yew tree tlr. I’ve been shooting 6.5mm 114gn and killed roe deer too 440m effectively and reds to 340m

begs the question " what failed ?" Barnes certainly wouldn't

 

[Utectok]

begs the question " what failed ?" Barnes certainly wouldn't

Honestly mate I’ve had limited success with Barnes ttsx beyond 250m. Everyone is different I know different loads etc but that’s my experience in both .308 and 6.5…

 

[Adyb]

Hmm, the issue in high alps is anchoring the beast. If it runs then likely lost over a cliff so you have to give it a proper wallop. (Hence 7rm and 154gr interlocks currently). I stopped my first copper experiment for stalking last year when i had a complete pencil through and 80m leap/run with a broadside an inch above the heart - at 200m (270 trophy copper 140gr. 35kg animal).. chamois are relatively thin skinned but powerful...

I have been using ttsx for driven hunts and noticeably better expansion/shock vs trophy c but yet to be convinced at 300m +. Am looking for a box of lrx to try but scarce in france.

Has anyone regularly used Geco zero/Evostrike/RWS evo at longer ranges...?
Thanks again
P.s I will investigate yew tree/virtus and see if importation will be an issue

 

[Bowland blades]

limited success can mean so many things and have so many reasons . One thing that won't be part of that is the bullet itself i promise you that though. I have now shot a lot of deer ( mainly red stags ) but CWD, Roe , muntjac figured 3200 fps load it does slow down in a short window but thats not at 250 yards . The 100 grain (which i prefer over the 120) will break both shoulders on a stag and just about exit a good clean 100 yards further than that and close up wont give up like a none partition type at short range ( will also expand within the cavity of the samaller species. i do try to take both shoulders but head, neck and angled from front or behind shots have to be taken . Had a the last of a bunch of three stags run a fair way as if i hadnt hit it ( but i knew i had ) it then wandered about before pressure to the brain failed with 120 grain , was just one of them that happens when a deer is alert to danger . Also another big guy i had to shoot from behind at an angle , aimed back rib but missed just how strong the wind was channeling though the gully that separated us plopped the bullet in the gut unfortunately something around 250 ish it ran 100 yards down hill and couldnt make the next slope , soon as caught up it was laid down unable to get up , finishing shot sorted it ! Unfortunate event but there you go , its been years since i did that . A difficult thing i find with copper is calling the windages but then they are too rare and expensive to shoot thousands onto paper like most of us have lead , i certainly wouldnt trust normal programs based around lead yet . Remember Barnes built the copper Monolythic to be better than the lead bullet origonally not to comply with legislation against lead bullets when they set out

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Over the last 12 years I have used a wide variety of non lead at ranges between 50 and 450m on small to medium game

Fox classic Hunter in 308 I shot my largest ever stag at 285m from a 20" barrel 308.
Drop is significant but the bullet reacted perfectly and the stag went 10 yds
Arguably the fox bullet works best on small to medium game at moderate terminal velocities of 22-2500fps
higher terminal velocities see the petals break off and terminal effect is not as good when this happens.
Fragmentation is unpredictable

I have used Peregrine 136gr from the same gun out to 350-395yds to good effect, less drop but you still need accurate range and drop data.
Terminal effect has been excellent and I have shot hinds and stags
I tend to shoot them all in the high shoulder region so response is a quick drop.
I have shot targets with them out to 850m
I once had a spectactular crow at 500m with the 136gr
Doesn't demonstrate expansion but it does demonstrate accuracy

Lately I am using 203gr peregrine in a 300 Norma Magnum
pushing 3125 from a 24" barrel
Range testing has been excellent out to 850m with approx 0.5moa accuracy all the way out.
As you can imagine being hit with a 203gr is pretty spectacular and I have shot up to 350m
Penetration is good as you would expect
Expansion is excellent with no fragmentation
Carcase damage is minimal but the internal damage is impressive with huge wound channel through organs.
This rifle was built specifically for work at 300-500m where the terrain is out of view from any other shorter range location.

The Peregrine bullets are solid copper which is annealed after machining and fitted with a solid brass tip
The tip is specifically designed to aid expansion not just look pointy and increase BC
Many tips are triangular in profile with a flat rear against the meplat of the hollow point bullet underneath.
This does nothing for expansion which only happens when that tip has broken off allowing the target material, (liquid/flesh/skin etc) to enter the hollwo point forcing it open.

The rear of the Peregrine tip has a radial profile like the back of a trombone.
It works so well to initiate expansion you can see opening of the meplat of the copper bullet by just tapping the tip hard into a table or similarly hard surface
So you can imagine what it does when impacting at 24-2800fps
High BC isn't the only thing to consider.

Some bullets work well at range because they fragment very easily.
This is often due to the fact the bullets are not annealed or heat treated after machining and are brittle.
Some are designed to do this.
Fragmentation is entirely unpredictable due to the variable density of the target.
Skinny light frames game with thin skin, Thicker skinned game, mud encrusted boar, shoulder shots, scapula vs humerus bone density. etc etc

The flip side to fragmentation expansion at range at moderate terminal velocities is massive "over-expansion" at higher terminal velocities at shorter range leaving huge carcase damage and often fragments having enough terminal energy to carry much further than expected or wanted.
Punctured diaphragm, internal loin damage or just loss of front end through huge exits through multiple fragments creating a shotgun effect.
Some designs of bullets with pre-cut meplat have reports of secondary target impact (the animal to the side or off to an angle taking a fragment)/

As an aside...
The purpose of game dealers moving to non lead in the UK is to remove metal from the carcase
ALL metal.
It doesn't matter if you shoot copper or depleted uranium.
If the carcase is full of bits of metal the meat is treated as waste.
Non lead Bullets that leave material in the carcase defeat the purpose of trying to keep the carcase metal free.


We have developed loads using peregrine for :

17Hornet (21gr at 4500fps!)
204 Ruger
20BR
222REM
22-BR
22-250
223
223Wylde
240 H&H Flanged
243
6mm BR
6XC
6.5x47
6.5x57
6.5-284
6.5-06
260 Rem
280
280 AI
7MM RM
.303
300WM
300PRC
300 Norma Mag
338 Lap Mag
338-06
416 Rem Mag
416 Rigby
404 Jeffrey

plus all the expected calibres and cartridges that are widely available.

Drop me a line if we can help get ammo or bullets into whatever region you are hunting.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Hi all, sorry for covering old ground but I'd been v grateful to hear from anyone who has persisted and got decent results from lead free at longer ranges (300and up if poss)

I'm specifically looking at switching to copper for alpine mountain stalks in wolf country, chamois, mouflon, reds, occasional boar. Calibers I'm using currently are 270 and 7mmRM.

Tested trophy copper and rws hit (nowhere near enough expansion). Ttsx (a bit better..)..
I note that the new Norma Evostrike boxes seem to be marketed directly at this application - justified....?

Thanks

Barnes TTSX 130’s out to 350 fine!

The best by far if i were you, the lapua naturalis for the 7mm rem mag!

 

[Utectok]

Personally I think everyone finds a bullet that works for them and sticks with it. I’m not associated with yew tree in any way I just find them the most accurate and best terminal performance medium range bullets I’ve shot (to 440m). I’ve shot Barnes and peregrine and for me peregrine didn’t group and Barnes were great till about 250m or so (6.5 and .308 tested with both bullets). This is a culmination of quite a few deer not few random incidents. But like I say everything is different for each shooter, speeds. calibre and so forth. That just my experience take it or leave it