Longest deer with copper ammo??

[RCS Deer Management]

Well it’s a coincidence I’ve experienced on numerous occasions with them…. Not an isolated incident. Another last night did the same. Deer died and it was fine but they don’t create much of a wound channel

I’m afraid that you have been unlucky then. The whole faster bullets not expanding thing is a myth. Ask any terminal ballistics expert and they will say the same. Just out of interest, If you were pushing your non toxic bullets out of a faster cartridge do you believe that they would then pencil through the animal out to say 300m till the bullet slows down to match your cartridge?

 

[deerstalker.308]

I’m afraid that you have been unlucky then. The whole faster bullets not expanding thing is a myth. Ask any terminal ballistics expert and they will say the same. Just out of interest, If you were pushing your non toxic bullets out of a faster cartridge do you believe that they would then pencil through the animal out to say 300m till the bullet slows down to match your cartridge?

No idea. All I can speak of is real world experience on big animals, I’m not talking munties here, so one would expect expansion. I speak as I find and not as the technical experts will tell us is “fact”.

 

[deerstalker.308]

what calibre what speed where did it hit..

.308 it’s RWS hit 165gr factory ammo. Behind the shoulder

 

[griff]

No idea. All I can speak of is real world experience on big animals, I’m not talking munties here, so one would expect expansion. I speak as I find and not as the technical experts will tell us is “fact”.

So what caliber, bullet weight, distance, perhaps then we would have a better idea of the issue, and allow others to compare.

 

[deerstalker.308]

So what caliber, bullet weight, distance, perhaps then we would have a better idea of the issue, and allow others to compare.

See above…..

 

[griff]

Sorry, too quick on the keyboard.

Don't need to say any more.
You have answered your own problem there.

 

[deerstalker.308]

Sorry, too quick on the keyboard.

Don't need to say any more.
You have answered your own problem there.

How?

 

[griff]

2650 fps providing you are using a 24" barrel ,max range 170m after which the velocity drops off so it will not expand reliably..
shot behind the shoulders so no or very little initiation of the tip.
Hydraulic/hydrostatic shock, call it whatever you want would be minimum.

 

[levigsp]

I’m afraid that you have been unlucky then. The whole faster bullets not expanding thing is a myth. Ask any terminal ballistics expert and they will say the same. Just out of interest, If you were pushing your non toxic bullets out of a faster cartridge do you believe that they would then pencil through the animal out to say 300m till the bullet slows down to match your cartridge?

Sorry but thats just wrong and the last time this subject hit these pages i went and did my own experiment's not believing the so called experts.
So at 40 meters I placed a ballistic putty[clay] block not gel.
The block was 15cm high, 15cm wide and 5cm thick, placed in front of a catch box.
I fired three shots at 2500fps with 180gn rnsp .308 bullet and three shots at 3200fps with the same bullet.
The result was all three of the 2500fps left exits a little over 1cm, so showing expansion, the 3200fps showed little or no expansion.
I then went onto the 7mm and tried similar using a dead fox as target, a slow 168gn bullet expanded ripping a 2" hole out the other side. Trying the same bullet at a very high speed it went straight through and it was difficult to find the hole.
So I know for a fact bullets connecting with soft tissue at high speed pencil through.
That is the reason we have such a massive chose of bullets to suit the speeds we shoot at at what range and our preferred targets.

 

[griff]

Sorry but thats just wrong and the last time this subject hit these pages i went and did my own experiment's not believing the so called experts.
So at 40 meters I placed a ballistic putty[clay] block not gel.
The block was 15cm high, 15cm wide and 5cm thick, placed in front of a catch box.
I fired three shots at 2500fps with 180gn rnsp .308 bullet and three shots at 3200fps with the same bullet.
The result was all three of the 2500fps left exits a little over 1cm, so showing expansion, the 3200fps showed little or no expansion.
I then went onto the 7mm and tried similar using a dead fox as target, a slow 168gn bullet expanded ripping a 2" hole out the other side. Trying the same bullet at a very high speed it went straight through and it was difficult to find the hole.
So I know for a fact bullets connecting with soft tissue at high speed pencil through.
That is the reason we have such a massive chose of bullets to suit the speeds we shoot at at what range and our preferred targets.

Well that has to be most unscientific experiment I have seen. The results speak for themselves.. 5cm thick clay and the results were the same.

 

[deerstalker.308]

2650 fps providing you are using a 24" barrel ,max range 170m after which the velocity drops off so it will not expand reliably..
shot behind the shoulders so no or very little initiation of the tip.
Hydraulic/hydrostatic shock, call it whatever you want would be minimum.

My Sauer has a fractionally shorter barrel (half inch or thereabouts) than the 23.6 inches suggested below, muzzle velocity is 2690, the deer in question have been sub 100m so I don’t follow you comment?
Their MRD (most recommended distance) is 188yds….

 

[griff]

My Sauer has a fractionally shorter barrel (half inch or thereabouts) than the 23.6 inches suggested below, muzzle velocity is 2690, the deer in question have been sub 100m so I don’t follow you comment?
Their MRD (most recommended distance) is 188yds….

At 100yds you are close to the velocity at which point the bullet will not expand reliably. I believe the figure is about 2200fps. RWS posted a video a few years ago where they shot ballistic gelatine and the range at which it failed to open significantly was 170mtrs.
Copper needs initiation, shoot a lighter bullet faster not only will you increase your max range(to a point) but you will find it expands better.
I know this is a strange analogy but there was program about running on "custard",you could poke your finger into custard with no resistance, but compress it and like flesh and it goes solid, thus you would get better initiation of the bullet. Once you have got that initial expansion, resistance and rotational spin will do the rest.
Try a 110gn in your 308 and you see a huge difference in the results you are getting..

 

[StephenToast]

My Sauer has a fractionally shorter barrel (half inch or thereabouts) than the 23.6 inches suggested below, muzzle velocity is 2690, the deer in question have been sub 100m so I don’t follow you comment?
Their MRD (most recommended distance) is 188yds…

Lots and lots of calculations and numbers and stuff.

The deer were dead right?

 

[deerstalker.308]

At 100yds you are close to the velocity at which point the bullet will not expand reliably. I believe the figure is about 2200fps. RWS posted a video a few years ago where they shot ballistic gelatine and the range at which it failed to open significantly was 170mtrs.
Copper needs initiation, shoot a lighter bullet faster not only will you increase your max range(to a point) but you will find it expands better.
I know this is a strange analogy but there was program about running on "custard",you could poke your finger into custard with no resistance, but compress it and like flesh and it goes solid, thus you would get better initiation of the bullet. Once you have got that initial expansion, resistance and rotational spin will do the rest.
Try a 110gn in your 308 and you see a huge difference in the results you are getting..

I understand the principal of non-newtonian liquids, what I’m not understanding is why your figures vary so greatly with what the manufacturer states, I do appreciate they are probably not “in field” figures, but if you are saying that past 100m these rounds are basically not fit for purpose then that’s just odd. Coupled with the fact my experiences are sub 100m generally so it should still be functioning effectively.
I also appreciate the “go lighter” argument but that is a luxury I don’t have as I’m limited by what I can buy as I don’t reload….

 

[Shabz]

I’ve been putting 95gr ttsx through my .270 at 3500 FPS. They do a grand job of killing roe deer. I don’t have a range finder so keep shots under about 300 yards so I don’t have to think about drop.

 

[griff]

I understand the principal of non-newtonian liquids, what I’m not understanding is why your figures vary so greatly with what the manufacturer states, I do appreciate they are probably not “in field” figures, but if you are saying that past 100m these rounds are basically not fit for purpose then that’s just odd. Coupled with the fact my experiences are sub 100m generally so it should still be functioning effectively.
I also appreciate the “go lighter” argument but that is a luxury I don’t have as I’m limited by what I can buy as I don’t reload….

No, I am not saying these are unfit for purpose, but they are on the edge of performance., Non of my figures vary from what the manufacturers have said. The 170mtrs is their(RWS) own max range.
I think that the choice of 165gn bullet in a 308 is one that if you were shooting thick skinned tough game then could be appropriate at a relatively close range, and at a range whereby the there is maximum resistance that will make the bullet expand..

 

[levigsp]

Well that has to be most unscientific experiment I have seen. The results speak for themselves.. 5cm thick clay and the results were the same.

Excuse me, the same? can you read? the re was a huge difference between the speeds and effects.
And practical experience has shown me the same with countless rounds from 6mm to 9mm, super fast body shot at close range pencil through.
Ask the poor sods in Poland Germany ect who go looking for lost pigs after driven shoots.

 

[griff]

So I read this wrong then "The result was all three of the 2500fps left exits a little over 1cm, so showing expansion, the 3200fps showed little or no expansion".

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Excuse me, the same? can you read? the re was a huge difference between the speeds and effects.
And practical experience has shown me the same with countless rounds from 6mm to 9mm, super fast body shot at close range pencil through.
Ask the poor sods in Poland Germany ect who go looking for lost pigs after driven shoots.

Video it and post it, as it would be the first time that anyone has been able to prove your findings! I’m sorry, but the tests have been done thousands of times in much more controlled conditions than your excrement, and they all come to the same conclusion. Fast bullets always expand faster than slow ones. How does a .220 swift or 7 REM mag ever kill game effectively if speed is an issue!

 

[RCS Deer Management]