Id agree Ive shot a few muntjac with the 6.5 at close range.. jump land run!! perfect heart shots no expansion. Im finding the 243 or 30-06 better
Longest deer with copper ammo??
- Thread starter Utectok
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levigsp
Well-Known Member
Again I ask! both show very different result are are you seeing it differently?
levigsp
Well-Known Member
To answer you last question first by using the correct bullet etc and the test I did was with a 7 mm mag.
When I first found this issue in the 80s I asked Sierra and they suggested they were the ones that told me to either aim for shoulder or slow the bullet down!
When I was shooting in Poland with RWS present some of them were using 7mm magnums, the people looking for game were complaining that the bullets were going straight through pigs and the fat was sealing the tiny exit. yet pigs shot with same bullets from 7x64[slower] were leaving blood trail as exit was bigger.
I am no expert on these things, I do not make videos or know how to.,, but i am a realist and I live for hunting. i am in the field 300 days year and I know what works and where etc. There are to many claims made by the so called experts that simply do not live upto scrutiny in the field, because they need to make money.
I used 180 grain bond strikes for very long range hunting and the opened perfectly at long range, in your idea they should explode on contact at close range, yet in reality they come out of game the same size they go in at 20 meters, thats a fact Ive seen with my own eyes.
You only need to think how many times people say the same thing, there must be a reason for it.
The trouble is people use gell etc to prove a point, it creating something that is equal though out.
Look at it this way. If you were to fire a given bullet at a pile of newspapers as some do, they will stop the bullet and it will expand, then fire the same loading at a sheet of news paper! it will not expand as there is not enough resistance for it to expand.
Bullets need the resistance and soft tissue on normal hunting bullets does not give the resistance required at very high speed.
Anyway thats enough of my rambling, either you are like me and accept your own experiences and eyes etc or you believe the sales talk. Your choice not mine, I made mine years ago.
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I'll probably change to those bullets for all deer when we get the 100gr rule in Scotland amended.
Brave Echo Niner
Well-Known Member
I cannot speak about the HIT, I have never used it. But I don't think this is a general problem with copper, that when it's close it doesn't expand. I have pushed 130 Grain TTSX's at 3650FPS Muzzle velocity out of a 300WSM and hit roe at a TV of around 3300-3350. I can promise that was a messy day and there was no problem in expansion, much the opposite in fact.
I have as a result worked up loads for the 150 TSX and TTSX in the WSM which are working well and the damage is acceptable but still incredibly emphatic in how it hits (still flips deer when it hits).
Ben
I have as a result worked up loads for the 150 TSX and TTSX in the WSM which are working well and the damage is acceptable but still incredibly emphatic in how it hits (still flips deer when it hits).
Ben
Newspapers are inconsistent in that they have varying degrees of density, unless you bond them together then obviously the results are going to be inconclusive.
Ballistic gelatine is used for a reason, firstly it is consistent and secondly it is a close to flesh as possible.
Shoot the bullets into something they were designed for, not 50mm of clay.
I presume the 180gn @ 3200fps was out of a 300 winnie, and you wondered why it didn't expand on 50mm of clay..
Ballistic gelatine is used for a reason, firstly it is consistent and secondly it is a close to flesh as possible.
Shoot the bullets into something they were designed for, not 50mm of clay.
I presume the 180gn @ 3200fps was out of a 300 winnie, and you wondered why it didn't expand on 50mm of clay..
levigsp
Well-Known Member
Not reading and understanding. I was giving an extreme example with the paper, eg one sheet no resentence 1000 sheets load of resistance.
Then comes you scoff at the clay, again read it, as its ballistic putty as used by the armed forces police etc to test ammo. and your last one about the "300 winnie" well have you thought about what you have just said? you dont expect it to expand, why? the slower 308 win did using the same bullet! And if it had been a lung shot roe the 308 would have expanded, the 300 mag [actualy rum][ would have past straight through.
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
Well, again tonight, 3rd in a row. Pencilled through, deer was not about to fall down so a follow up was used. I think part of my issue as has been mentioned(ish) already is my shot placement. I’ve been purposefully trying not to hit shoulders so the game dealer doesn’t deduct what is an already pitifully low price for meat damage, but to use up the remaining stocks while I search for a source of lighter weight bullets I think it’ll be pinning shoulder shots from now on. Don’t want runners.
If you want to compare expansion based on velocity you need to standardise the other variables using a fixed density target medium.
Comparing one shot against another on live targets with variables like bones/angles/etc is like trying to compare fish to bicycles.
You need a large data set to remove the impact of the variables.
Few shots doesn’t prove anything.
That said given the major issue with some Monolithics having unpredictable expansion at varying terminal velocity (range) it requires even more thought on matching the bullet to the quarry.
I would limit my 136gr in 308 starting at 2950 to circa 300m
And it would require a bone shot.
Beyond that you need more velocity, more mass or heavier/denser targets to ensure reliable expansion and humane shots
Comparing one shot against another on live targets with variables like bones/angles/etc is like trying to compare fish to bicycles.
You need a large data set to remove the impact of the variables.
Few shots doesn’t prove anything.
That said given the major issue with some Monolithics having unpredictable expansion at varying terminal velocity (range) it requires even more thought on matching the bullet to the quarry.
I would limit my 136gr in 308 starting at 2950 to circa 300m
And it would require a bone shot.
Beyond that you need more velocity, more mass or heavier/denser targets to ensure reliable expansion and humane shots
Well I’m glad you’re having an argument.
An observation… As you know we had some dreadful poor results with the older Barnes bullets and subsequent very patchy performance from various copper designs, the most recent exercises being the .277 Barnes 129gr LRX and .30 Barnes 110gr TTSX. The ability to reach an objective conclusion on terminal performance was always clouded by two main variables: the dramatic differences in game weight / toughness and range.
You cannot objectively compare copper bullet terminal performance on munjac in one breath and then large red deer in the next. That’s what tends to happen inadvertently in these discussions - one guy is shooting only roe deer, another is shooting driven boar, another (like me) is shooting various animals small to large at 400m+. Too many variables to be objective.
An observation… As you know we had some dreadful poor results with the older Barnes bullets and subsequent very patchy performance from various copper designs, the most recent exercises being the .277 Barnes 129gr LRX and .30 Barnes 110gr TTSX. The ability to reach an objective conclusion on terminal performance was always clouded by two main variables: the dramatic differences in game weight / toughness and range.
You cannot objectively compare copper bullet terminal performance on munjac in one breath and then large red deer in the next. That’s what tends to happen inadvertently in these discussions - one guy is shooting only roe deer, another is shooting driven boar, another (like me) is shooting various animals small to large at 400m+. Too many variables to be objective.
What deer
What bullet
What range?
Even pinned shoulders with monolithics can produce clean carcases.
Shoot in the head/neck then?
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
Not a fan. Personal choice. Not one I like to choose every day.
Any single density substrate is not a reliable comparison to multi density carcase
Even limiting it to a cheat shot
Skin
Minor muscle/major muscle
Bone or not bone
Minor muscle
Lung/heart/liver
Minor muscle
Bone or not bone
Minor muscle
Skin
In that order
Anything else will expand into a water butt or 48” gelatine block
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
Lowland red, .308 165gr RWS hit at 120m
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
Entry
Exit
Exit
Very interesting photos @deerstalker.308.
Are you able to confirm what number ribs the entry and exit have hit? From the exit photo it looks like rib #7 or #8? Always a bit tricky to judge if you can’t see the brisket at the front of the cavity.
Are you able to confirm what number ribs the entry and exit have hit? From the exit photo it looks like rib #7 or #8? Always a bit tricky to judge if you can’t see the brisket at the front of the cavity.
Internal organs?
Depending on what you hit, it probably didn't know it was dead and needed some time to realise.
Not using gloves?
Won't get top price from a game dealer otherwise!
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
Anyone have any thoughts of Geco Zero 136gr lead free? There may be some available locally and possibly worth trying as an alternative
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