Magpie dropped from 2024 Welsh general licences

[Nickb]

You can Google the key findings of this project. (I don't know how to do a link off this Chromebook.)
The summary is that over the period of legal predator control the quantity of Grey Partridges increased significantly on each of the two patches of the Plain the trial was run on.

Hardly rocket science is it. Culling predators always makes a difference, ask the Curlew and Lapwing

 

[Bo Diddley]

Hardly rocket science is it. Culling predators always makes a difference, ask the Curlew and Lapwing

Correct, but there appear to be a few folks that have the opinion that it makes not that much difference and that magpies and carrion crows have not too much of an adverse effect

 

[Daisymay]

Been picking away at the corvids a few years now and this year there was a marked increase in peewits but more importantly I watch 3 pair of curlews on the ground I cover raise chicks which was very satisfying to see. So in my opinion we'll worth taking the time and effort.

 

[JTO]

Correct, but there appear to be a few folks that have the opinion that it makes not that much difference and that magpies and carrion crows have not too much of an adverse effect

Perhaps they would rather let someone else do the work. I account for about one per acre per year on my place, in one way or another.

 

[jall55]

From 1 January 2024 you will need to apply for a specific licence to take or kill a magpie in Wales for any purpose. That includes the use of magpie as a call bird in cage traps (Larsen, Ladder etc.).

Magpie had been dropped from the 2023 general licence for the purpose of conserving wild birds and will not be on the 2024 general licence for that purpose. Magpie was on the 2023 general licence for the purpose of preventing serious damage or spread of disease to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables or fruit but will be dropped from the 2024 general licence for that purpose. This means that from 1 January 2024 magpie will not be covered by any general licence in Wales, which is a precedent in the UK for this species since general licences first came into being in the 1990s - under a UK-specific derogation from EU directives for the protection of birds.

The reasoning that Natural Resources Wales (NRW) gave for the removal of magpie is in relation to species population data and that is outlined here:

Review of 2023 General Licences for wild bird control - Natural Resources Wales Citizen Space - Citizen Space

Find and participate in consultations run by Natural Resources Wales

ymgynghori.cyfoethnaturiol.cymru

The 2024 Welsh general licences for species such as Canada goose, carrion crow, feral pigeon, jackdaw and woodpigeon have been published and are here:

Natural Resources Wales / General licences for birds 2024

naturalresources.wales

Reading these is just bizarre
They now dont consider song thrush threatened - so you cant shoot a crow to protect one !
Madness

 

[jall55]

Really really must all write and complain

 

[BenBhoy]

In fairness to them - they do show it
They showed Jays tasking many broods last year - then just added - oh its a shame but its nature
No its not - too many generalist predators because of too many people leaving their litter - food rubbish about

Redressing the balance

 

[jall55]

Really really must all write and complain

Had a response - "because this is a properly made decision" this complaint is not something that can be addressed

So i have now complained again - asked and asked for the CEO email address - I will now complain to them

 

[Ian70]

I've lost count of how many magpies I've despatched in my larsen trap. But yeah, the Welsh Goverment want devolution, just not the dept left behind it.

 

[mudman]

In the main, the significant predators of game and ground nesting birds are foxes and carrion crows ( & possibly brown rats). Everything else are also rans in comparison. The protection of magpies will have minimal affect on game and ground nesting birds.

 

[jall55]

In the main, the significant predators of game and ground nesting birds are foxes and carrion crows ( & possibly brown rats). Everything else are also rans in comparison. The protection of magpies will have minimal affect on game and ground nesting birds.

As custodians of the land though we have to be concerned with song birds too and magpies are certainly a significant issue with those

 

[paul o']

#71 post !And Not one from the VOICE OF SHOOTING ?

 

[Siggy]

If you go back to the reason why, we hammered magpies and anything else that looked crooked at game bird’s because they were affecting the bottom line, every egg or chick they took is one less bird over the guns.
That was and is reasonable when we depended on wild stock and bantams in a rearing field.
It’s far less justifiable now.
It was also very effective when most of the country was managed shooting estates, nowadays there are just too many sanctuary areas for isolated efforts to have much effect.

You make a fair and interesting point. The one thing I would counter with is the current absence of predators for Magpies - principally goshawks. Hopefully goshawks will start making a significant come back including in urban environments.
You could argue that magpies are super abundant because of the increased breeding success from raiding the nests of birds that are in turn super abundant due to feeding on bird tables - e.g blackbirds, blue tits and great tits. There definitely needs to be a bit of balance returned to the environment and increasing the complexity of the food web with more predators would in my opinion be advantageous.
There is some interesting research coming out that suggests willow tits are in decline because they don't feed on bird tables and are out competed for nest sites by blue tits which do. This leads us to the conclusion that may be the problem is the artificial feeding on bird tables and not the magpies.

However you pick at this problem, the real issues though is the reduction of habitat by clearing and fragmentation - due to to many people.

 

[Bo Diddley]

However you pick at this problem, the real issues though is the reduction of habitat by clearing and fragmentation - due to to many people.

Yep, I reckon 90% is about habit loss, you only have to look at the changes in the last five decades to see it's not good.

 

[Dunwaters]

You make a fair and interesting point. The one thing I would counter with is the current absence of predators for Magpies - principally goshawks. Hopefully goshawks will start making a significant come back including in urban environments.
You could argue that magpies are super abundant because of the increased breeding success from raiding the nests of birds that are in turn super abundant due to feeding on bird tables - e.g blackbirds, blue tits and great tits. There definitely needs to be a bit of balance returned to the environment and increasing the complexity of the food web with more predators would in my opinion be advantageous.
There is some interesting research coming out that suggests willow tits are in decline because they don't feed on bird tables and are out competed for nest sites by blue tits which do. This leads us to the conclusion that may be the problem is the artificial feeding on bird tables and not the magpies.

However you pick at this problem, the real issues though is the reduction of habitat by clearing and fragmentation - due to to many people.

I think that the present super abundance of general predators is down to a number of factors.
Back in the 60’s and 70’s there were lots of small mixed farms and lots of backyard chickens, there was generally a gun behind the door and if a magpie, crow or whatever gave you a shot, you took it, no questions asked. We also routinely dug out foxes and went nest shooting during the spring.
All that is gone and with the increased tolerance the general predators have moved into our urban areas.
We have more now than we’ve ever had and one thing that defines general predators is that they are smart, quick to adapt and quick to exploit whatever is going.
Yes, they’ll take eggs and chicks, but they’re no longer dependent on them, they are just as happy with the remains of last night’s kebab.
Whether you shoot or trap is up to you, my experience is that it doesn’t make much difference either way and there’s the argument that if you have a concentration of nests on your patch you’re actually attracting predators into the area to exploit the extra protein.
Where control does make a difference is when it’s targeted to benefit specific vulnerable species and areas, but the more I think about it, the less I can justify a blanket approach to predator control.

 

[Ratel]

I have been hard on magpies most of my life since they started to increase. I return to my memories sometimes and think about collecting eggs as a kid. It took me two years to get a Carrion's egg and three to get a magpies egg. This because in the 40's and 50's every keeper and farmer made a habit of shooting the nests out. However after the Spring nesting season when all the young birds were fledged and my Gamebirds were growing well I left the odd magpie about, simply because they are usually the first so spot and chatter at a fox. This gave all the birds the warning to be vigilant. Regarding the proliferation of Red kites, there is not enough carrion about to feed them all and the FC and others provide feeding stations for them. Again in areas where there is very little carrion it is interesting to note how these birds become predators, I quite often see them taking mallard ducklings off the water on one pool, whilst the Carrion's take them off the bank. Ravens are now firmly established in places they have not been since the middle ages and I know of three nest sites. I remember a Scottish farming neighbour describing them as Bloody giant corbies which should be killed at every chance as he lost a great number of Blackie lambs to them. We in this country have lost the plot altogether regarding predators and prey and having seen the best of rural matters in my life it is now in free fall, I'm afraid our descendants will end up with very little in the way of songbirds and see predators surviving on smaller predators.
The last surviving will be the rat and the fox, who will eat who?
.

 

[Bo Diddley]

I have been hard on magpies most of my life since they started to increase. I return to my memories sometimes and think about collecting eggs as a kid. It took me two years to get a Carrion's egg and three to get a magpies egg. This because in the 40's and 50's every keeper and farmer made a habit of shooting the nests out. However after the Spring nesting season when all the young birds were fledged and my Gamebirds were growing well I left the odd magpie about, simply because they are usually the first so spot and chatter at a fox. This gave all the birds the warning to be vigilant. Regarding the proliferation of Red kites, there is not enough carrion about to feed them all and the FC and others provide feeding stations for them. Again in areas where there is very little carrion it is interesting to note how these birds become predators, I quite often see them taking mallard ducklings off the water on one pool, whilst the Carrion's take them off the bank. Ravens are now firmly established in places they have not been since the middle ages and I know of three nest sites. I remember a Scottish farming neighbour describing them as Bloody giant corbies which should be killed at every chance as he lost a great number of Blackie lambs to them. We in this country have lost the plot altogether regarding predators and prey and having seen the best of rural matters in my life it is now in free fall, I'm afraid our descendants will end up with very little in the way of songbirds and see predators surviving on smaller predators.
The last surviving will be the rat and the fox, who will eat who?
.

Couldn't agree more, this country is starting to remind me of the time I first drove to the South of France 35 years ago... all I saw driving along were hawks & falcons perched along the roadside, very little in the way of anything "Nice"
Buzzards & Red Kites are abundant in my part of Norfolk, Carrion Crows are more abundant than Magpies.