Mode of death

[Brithunter]

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*That might be a good idea

Yes I do I was asked by the people who invited me over to Missouri to shoot a nice clean carcase for a friend of theirs who was ill and unable to make the hunting season in 2003 when this occured. I watched this deer come through the wood on the opposite side of the creek come down the bank and across a sand bar and up the bank my side. I was standing in a small group of trees on the bank the deer came up the bank and stopped to check it was clear. The clearing was about 16 feet wide then thick sapling brush:-

The deer was shot to the left of this photo as this is looking away from the creek.

As he paused I shot and he dropped. I waited a moment before reaching down to pick up my day pack and walk the short distance towards him when he suddenly got up. He jumped half way across the clearing and I snatched a shot whilst dropping the pack and he went down but got up almost right away. To say I was shocked is an understatement . There was some urgency to drop the deer quickly as if it got into that scrub it was going to be fun to even get a shot luckily for me it stopped swaying before reaching the scrub and had turned slightly so shot #3 followed and connected. The deer did not reach it into the scrub and you can see how close that is. Sorry I did not think to time it from start to finish .

Sorry to say I no longer have any photos of this button buck.

Now mr Brown,

A while back someone wrote in to comment that they were unhappy with the agressive and rude tone some posters were taking in their replies to questions. I had to agree with him. I have met many excellent lads through this site and have given a lot of folk chances to stalk unfamiliar species of deer to them. This has been very rewarding.
I was disappointed to read comments directed at the starter of this thread telling him to give up stalking and describing his knowledge as woefully lacking. That from someone who then shows his own shortcomings and ineptitude by admitting to needing to put 4 shots into the head of a deer to kill it. I hope the antis arnt reading this. David
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Yes it did take 4 shots and I don't know why it did but I can only report what happened. Meanwhile someone who is working on the theory that Hydrostaic shock is what kills in stalking of shooting well the knowledge shown is woefully lacking and I stick to that point. Shock is not even understood medically I believe? However if it was shock that killed we would all be using highly frangable bullets at hyper velocities and having no need for exit wounds for blood trails. I believe My Weatherby alluded to this theory and made a fortune selling it to others with very varible results and often poor results .

Of course as it offends some in future only perfect results will be reported as per the shooting magazine and the gun whores rabblings.

The OP said this:-

I understand bullets kill quickly by sending a hydraulic shock wave via the blood to vital centers of the hindbrain. The brain can auto regulate minor changes in Blood Pressure but a bullet strike is like a JCB, with its ram half extended running into something with its bucket, this peaks the Hydraulic pressure

Despite his experience dealing with GSW's no mention of the mechanical damage or that caused by secondary projectiles from bullet fragmentaion (the front mushrooming) or bone splinters. Clearly saying it's the hydraulic pulse which we know is not the case in most deer shot. Ass everal others have pointed out Deer will run after beign shot sometimes, they're dead on their feet but they still run!

Of course I am not a Doctor just a shooter/collector and deer stalker however I find it rather hard to understand that Three bullet paths, all well above jaw line failed to connect with anything other than air filled sinuses , but it seems that I managed it . Yes on hindsight I should have chest shot it after it got back up the first time but a clean carcase was asked for and that was provided. The person it was for was very pleased indeed I am told. I have heard of other "headshot deer" getting back up and so I will not trust head shots anymore.

Now over to the experts .

 

[User00015]

I recon there would be some very happy and very rich gunsmiths out there if everybody that had a Sika stag run on a good engine room shot changed their rifle..

If you shoot a good few you will get a runner on pretty much any calibre at some point..

Lot of respect for the sika, tough and resilient.

Absolutely, 100% agree Terry. Well said!

Jo

 

[bogtrotter]

I am no expert but can only comment on some of the strange things I have experienced,Hydrostatic shock I have no idea.

What I do know is that you will get a runner regardless of what calibre you use.

Seen a Red Stag in the rut shot with 300 weatherby magnum carry on roaring for 30 seconds before collapsing heart was completely destroyed.
Shot Red hind took top skull off and she ran off with brain exposed, fortunately she ran in circles so was able to get a follow up shot [ finished me from taking head shots]

Shot Red Hind with 6.5x54 [ when it was still legal here] factory ammo [faulty load maybe or bullet construction] bullet never entered the rib cage only broke the skin and cracked a rib still killed her stone dead ,how can that be explained.

Some people Pooh Pooh this but its a fact and a lot of experienced stalkers will have seen it a deer grazed across the back will collapse instantly and be paralysed for a few seconds before getting up and running off.

I also know that a deer that has been wounded is much harder to kill,as subsequent shots seem to have little effect unless you can hit something which will immobilise it the spine for example, one that runs off with a boiler room shot will often take another in the same area with no effect.
As I say I know nothing of Hydrostatic shock, though there seems to be more to this than just a bullet
destroying vital organs as some would have us believe.

Can anyone offer an explanation for any or all of the above.

Never to old to learn.

BT

 

[jamross65]

I shot a lot of sika deer whilst managing them over 5,000acres in the Scottish Borders. My friend who helped manage the ground with me has been stalking them for over 30 years. Another friend was a professional stalker before moving to pheasants and has literally shot an untold number of sika. This is not bragging, I just want to highlight that the following is not down to 3rd party info and its no more than our own findings. I compare them to only fallow, red and roe, not having shot any of the other species found in the country.

In our experience, no other species of deer will run in the same way when shot or for as far if hit in a vital area than a sika, in particular stags. I am not aying this was the case 100% of the time, just more often than not. As has already been mentioned they are tough and tenacious in their will to escape and again in our experience will often take flight far more readily when 'spooked' than the other species. To confirm this I heard it was estimated at one time it took something like 33 man hours for every sika hind shot in the Scottish Borders. I do not have access to the paperwork containing these facts but it came from collective returns from the various estates in the area. We were lucky in the fact we had a fairly dense population on our ground. The time taken did not reflect on calf's or stags. Because of this tendency to run we got into the habit of shooting all our sika in the neck or head. Even though the 3 of us own trained deer dogs, the effort in recovering a 140lb (larder weight) stag from beneath a canopy of spruce and trying to crawl out over 300yds with it made it an impossible feat. I'm not trying to suggest sika are some mystical beast but they do possess traits that I have not really found in the other species e.g attacking stalkers during the rut or after being shot (happened to people I know). It did require us to stalk closer than otherwise may have been necessary.

When I first started stalking sika I used a .270. I then moved to a .25-06 which was moderated and loaded with 100grn Hornady soft points which I found very good at dropping stags but again they were shot in the neck. A point worth noting is that often when skinning them the bullet was recovered underneath the skin on the opposite side from being shot. As already mentioned, a rutting sika stag is a tough animal with an incredible thickness of skin around the neck/shoulder. I weigh 15st 8lbs and cannot pull the skin off the neck whilst hanging from the beasts we often had in the larder after a couple of days cooling. I now shoot with a .243AI but still maintain the practice of neck or head shots when stalking sika. Another plus point is personally I don't eat the head so there is no meat loss and we were regularly praised by the gamedealers (no surprise there) on our quality of carcases.

I'm not looking to start a branch of debate on the ethics of neck or head shots, nor one on the IQ of sika. I'm simply agreeing with the comment on their 'toughness' and mine and a couple of friends experiences. On occasion when we had guests out and not wanting to put pressure on them to take a neck shot, we were more often than not reminded why we maintained this practice.

Just something to consider.

 

[rodkayak]

I think that this is the best reply to the initial post yet. It certainly fufills the requirements of the forum to educate & inform.
Thank you
Robert B.

 

[matt458]

Although it makes a lot of sense to stick with one load/bullet combination to learn trajectory etc , when dealing with deer species as diverse in size as those we have in the UK it may be appropriate to taylor bullet design to our quarry. Shooting a .30 cal Barnes at a muntjac size animal is likely to result in little or no exansion with subsequent lack of wounding. If the same bullet or similar is used (with correct shot placement) on a Sika stag then a runner seems less likely. (but not impossible!). To summarise, 1. shot placement 2. bullet construction 3. calibre 4. velocity.
Maybe.
Matt