Muntjac with dependent follower

[Muntybuck5803]

If what you post is a true reflection of how you would behave; then I am glad I hold different values.

I have hunted/shot/stalked all my adult life and for me, it is not just about pulling the trigger on any living beast.

I really don't want to sound "Preachy" but there it is...

Yep, as above 100%

 

[badbob]

I`m afraid muntjac have been villified for too long.
In one aspect they are treated as vermin, then suddenly a buck with a few centimetres of antler is worth a fortune.
Really they can provide the " poor mans" stalking.
If you shoot on sight then you are going to orphan a fawn sooner rather than later.
If you spend some time observing you will get to see pregnant does, does with fawns, young does without fawns , young bucks and bigger bucks.
You can then be at least selective when you shoot one.

 

[willie_gunn]

It’s what called the agony of choice.

Logic would say shoot the doe first - she is probably pregnant already so it is certainly more efficient in terms of reducing the overall population, presuming that is what the management plan demands.

If you have the luxury of an understanding landowner, or feel uncomfortable at the prospect of leaving an abandoned kid, shoot the kid first and then hope the doe sticks around to present a shot.

I haven’t seen reliable statistics on muntjac kid mortality, but if it is anything like roe there are far greater dangers to juvenile muntjac than you out there taking the odd one or two.

However they are muntjac, and overthink it and you’ll miss the chance of either!

If it was me I would leave them both, as I can’t quite bring myself to shoot a doe with a tiny kid gambolling by her side. I was out before Christmas and a tiny muntjac kid in a spotted coat came through the wood to the feeder I was standing by. It was absolutely entrancing to watch. Needless to say, I didn’t raise my rifle. Stupid and sentimental, definitely, but so be it. It’s my finger on the trigger.

It was not always thus.

I remember some years ago proudly telling a fellow stalker how I had guided a client onto a munty buck that was chasing a doe. The client shot the doe, as it presented the best opportunity and I gave him the okay. “But it will have had a dependent kid!” was my fellow stalker’s immediate reaction. Patently obvious, when you think about it. I cringe at the memory, but I’ve never forgotten it.

So I always try to shoot heavily pregnant does wherever possible. After 20 years I still sometimes get it wrong. Shoot muntjac in woodland and you often only get the briefest of chances. When there’s heavy pressure to control muntjac, you sometimes have to take the opportunities they present.

So I certainly wouldn’t criticise anyone who decided to shoot the doe, the kid, or ideally both. Your ground, your landowner, your rules.

In the true spirit of the confessional, I have shot muntjac - particularly at first/last light - that upon closer examination were perhaps not quite the mature animals I had thought them to be when looking through the binos or scope. Upon arriving to complete the gralloch it was a bit like Father Ted......... “small.....far away”. No spots on the coats, but unlikely to require the breastbone saw either. That said, they were wonderful eating.

 

[Erik Hamburger]

If your Brief is to eradicate all Muntjac than in my view you have a duty to the Landowner to eradicate all Muntjac.
That includes shooting a Doe with dependant follower, but it would be best practice to shoot the follower FIRST. The other way around is unethical as the follower may run off and starve. If you shoot the follower first, and can't shoot the Doe, not such an issue, as she will breed again.

 

[mudman]

Landowners not going to be looking over your shoulder, perfectly possible to just not see the doe with small kid in attendance. No one else need ever know.

 

[jon15]

The forever maligned Muntjac. I find this tread a little disheartening, we all know Muntjac are a non native species and in some cases can cause damage but so are Chinese, Sika and even Fallow (introduced by the Normans), but we don’t say “exterminate them“ or place a vermin tag on their heads. Like many non native species, they find a place in our ecosystem like many others have and will do so in the future. Unless there is a mass cull of all muntjac, carried out on a national scale the landowner will never remove all of the muntjac from his land, as the void will simply be filled from deer moving in from unmanaged land. Let’s face it, they are here to stay, so why not manage them like any other deer species.
I’m not being anthropomorphic, or soft, but all living creatures and especially our beloved deer (seems counterintuitive to love some you kill, but I do) need managing with respect and in an efficient and humane and sustainable way. That does not mean you stop culling and you will have to make some tough decisions a lot of the time as you hold to power of life and death, but the moment we start thinking killing for killings sake on the say so of “I want them all gone“ is the time I think we need to ask ourselves some very serious questions.
I know plenty of you will think what I have written is a load of rubbish and will vehemently disagree with my sentiment but this is how I feel.
Happy stalking.

 

[jon15]

The forever maligned Muntjac. I find this tread a little disheartening, we all know Muntjac are a non native species and in some cases can cause damage but so are Chinese, Sika and even Fallow (introduced by the Normans), but we don’t say “exterminate them“ or place a vermin tag on their heads. Like many non native species, they find a place in our ecosystem like many others have and will do so in the future. Unless there is a mass cull of all muntjac, carried out on a national scale the landowner will never remove all of the muntjac from his land, as the void will simply be filled from deer moving in from unmanaged land. Let’s face it, they are here to stay, so why not manage them like any other deer species.
I’m not being anthropomorphic, or soft, but all living creatures and especially our beloved deer (seems counterintuitive to love some you kill, but I do) need managing with respect and in an efficient and humane and sustainable way. That does not mean you stop culling and you will have to make some tough decisions a lot of the time as you hold to power of life and death, but the moment we start thinking killing for killings sake on the say so of “I want them all gone“ is the time I think we need to ask ourselves some very serious questions.
I know plenty of you will think what I have written is a load of rubbish and will vehemently disagree with my sentiment but this is how I feel.
Happy stalking.

 

[Siggy]

The forever maligned Muntjac. I find this tread a little disheartening, we all know Muntjac are a non native species and in some cases can cause damage but so are Chinese, Sika and even Fallow (introduced by the Normans), but we don’t say “exterminate them“ or place a vermin tag on their heads. Like many non native species, they find a place in our ecosystem like many others have and will do so in the future. Unless there is a mass cull of all muntjac, carried out on a national scale the landowner will never remove all of the muntjac from his land, as the void will simply be filled from deer moving in from unmanaged land. Let’s face it, they are here to stay, so why not manage them like any other deer species.
I’m not being anthropomorphic, or soft, but all living creatures and especially our beloved deer (seems counterintuitive to love some you kill, but I do) need managing with respect and in an efficient and humane and sustainable way. That does not mean you stop culling and you will have to make some tough decisions a lot of the time as you hold to power of life and death, but the moment we start thinking killing for killings sake on the say so of “I want them all gone“ is the time I think we need to ask ourselves some very serious questions.
I know plenty of you will think what I have written is a load of rubbish and will vehemently disagree with my sentiment but this is how I feel.
Happy stalking.

Fair point - IMO nothing should be treated like vermin. Having seen first hand how much work is needed to undo the damage they do to nationally important nature reserves, you are right, tough devisions are made. It’s unfortunate that their year round breeding means that there is no window where we can apply the usual close season, otherwise they could be managed in the same way of other deer. If you wanted to manage muntjac effectively with no orphaning of dependent young you would have to use methods not currently legal - e.g. live capture in nets and releasing lactating females. But it would be manpower heavy etc.

 

[willie_gunn]

....

 

[willie_gunn]

The forever maligned Muntjac. I find this tread a little disheartening, we all know Muntjac are a non native species and in some cases can cause damage but so are Chinese, Sika and even Fallow (introduced by the Normans), but we don’t say “exterminate them“ or place a vermin tag on their heads. Like many non native species, they find a place in our ecosystem like many others have and will do so in the future. Unless there is a mass cull of all muntjac, carried out on a national scale the landowner will never remove all of the muntjac from his land, as the void will simply be filled from deer moving in from unmanaged land. Let’s face it, they are here to stay, so why not manage them like any other deer species.
I’m not being anthropomorphic, or soft, but all living creatures and especially our beloved deer (seems counterintuitive to love some you kill, but I do) need managing with respect and in an efficient and humane and sustainable way. That does not mean you stop culling and you will have to make some tough decisions a lot of the time as you hold to power of life and death, but the moment we start thinking killing for killings sake on the say so of “I want them all gone“ is the time I think we need to ask ourselves some very serious questions.
I know plenty of you will think what I have written is a load of rubbish and will vehemently disagree with my sentiment but this is how I feel.
Happy stalking.

I certainly don't think what you have written is a load of rubbish, and I would question whether anyone would vehemently disagree with the overall sentiment, however it is still a reality that we live in a country with an ever-increasing deer problem and where the large majority of the land is managed in some way. That will inevitably result in some starkly differing attitudes towards deer.

There are plenty who do seemingly wish to see deer exterminated in certain situations - not necessarily stalkers but conservation bodies, governmental organisations, farmers and foresters to name but a few. And in certain situations it may sometimes be hard to disagree. Orchards, vineyards, new plantings, etc may well justify the exclusion, and indeed the elimination, of deer. This is certainly not limited to muntjac either, but is quite common also with our native red and roe.

Perhaps look at somewhere like Wytham, where a strong focus on excluding and eliminating deer has undoubtedly been of benefit to the overall ecosystem. I have been to talks on Wytham where they have recounted the efforts to exclude deer, and seeing the results in terms of the benefit to other flora and fauna it is hard to make a case that they should now relax those attitudes. This is simply reflecting the different priorities people will attach to land and its value. We love to see deer, but others equally love to see butterflies and birds. It is for no small reason that one of these talks was "Deer: A Conservationist's Friend of Foe"! There were plenty in the audience who advocated taking a similar approach to deer on a far wider basis.

If you have the benefit of your own land you can literally call the shots accordingly, but most of us without that advantage have to look at stalking in the context of a wealth of other land management activities. Following the requirements of the landowner does not necessitate throwing your morals out of the window, but it does require you to respect the landowners views. We can of course argue our corner that deer are part of the necessary ecosystem and should therefore be sustainably managed, but if at the end of the day one is not willing to respect the terms of the stalking lease then perhaps it would be better not to take it on in the first place?

 

[Erik Hamburger]

Following the requirements of the landowner does not necessitate throwing your morals out of the window, but it does require you to respect the landowners views. We can of course argue our corner that deer are part of the necessary ecosystem and should therefore be sustainably managed, but if at the end of the day one is not willing to respect the terms of the stalking lease then perhaps it would be better not to take it on in the first place?

This was exactly my point. If the Landowner, who grants you access to THEIR land, on THEIR terms and conditions, wants you to eradicate all Muntjac, and you accept those T&C's, than you shouldn't unilaterally over-rule your landowner and start to 'leave' a few, just because you're keen on some large antlers, or because you decide to 'manage for quality' which is what I come across a lot, or because you prefer that little Muntjac follower to grow a little bigger before you butcher it, so you have more venison in your freezer. 'Reducing the deer population' is my Brief on a few permissions, and only once I start to become quite unsuccessful stalking, and see very few deer, do I feel I have done the job for which I was contracted. It beggars believe that there are Stalkers who are basically cheating on their landowner by secretive 'leaving' a proportion of the deer population to safeguard their future Sport, or who under the pretence of 'managing the population' are actually trying to have MORE antlered (male) deer on their permission. And the landowner, who may have invested heavily in re-stocking trees, is scratching his head and wondering why his Stalker(s) never seem to get on top of the job...

 

[hunta]

Muntjac in my part of the county are increasing in numbers and populations are higher again fairly locally. Not, I know, in the same league as many southern and eastern counties. However, when stalking around here, I don't often see does with very small followers. The majority of animals that I see and shoot are a "shootable" size so me leaving the odd doe and young follower is not going have any noticeable affect on the population. Is this so very different in areas of high muntjac numbers?