timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Yes, ask for an open certificate.
Non cleared land
- Thread starter Man-o-woods
- Start date
@Conor O'Gorman - this rhetoric around 'too busy to clear ground, you'll have to wait' seems to be popping up all over the place - heard a lot in the South West. It is a basic service of the FLO - and their job is to ensure/enable law abiding citizens - so to prevent them from shooting in this manner is poor. Will it lead to - you don't have any reasonable cause ('permission') to own - or following to see if people breach conditions as a result of the delay?
That might be considered disingenuous..... I am aware of a number of shooters losing perfectly viable opportunities because of this approach. Places to shoot are hard enough to come by - don't need this additional hoop.
I would encourage the OP to formally request the land clearance as urgent - and if the Authority reaffirm no priority, then to ask for a derestricted license to allow you to legally carry out what has been requested of you by the landowner.
That might be considered disingenuous..... I am aware of a number of shooters losing perfectly viable opportunities because of this approach. Places to shoot are hard enough to come by - don't need this additional hoop.
I would encourage the OP to formally request the land clearance as urgent - and if the Authority reaffirm no priority, then to ask for a derestricted license to allow you to legally carry out what has been requested of you by the landowner.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
There is a lot of inconsistency of approach alright with some forces abandoning land checks for sporting rifle applications but others have not. There is a good case for land checks to be scrapped by all forces which BASC has been advocating in meetings with PCCs.
That is just the tip of the iceberg of inconsistency of approach across forces as underlined in this BASC report:
BASC publishes most comprehensive firearms licensing report to date
BASC has published a major new report reviewing the performance of police firearms licensing departments in England and Wales.
basc.org.uk
As for OP some general advice below and if they are a BASC member best to contact our firearms team.
Firearm certificate ‘open’ conditions
Conditions are a method available to police to regulate the behaviour of certificate holders. We explain what this means in practical terms.
basc.org.uk
Rifles, Calibres and Land: Advice for Firearms Enquiry Officers
A broad overview of advice and guidance related to key terminology and designed to assist police firearms enquiry officers
basc.org.uk
Does that infer that there will no longer be open and closed conditions?There is a lot of inconsistency of approach alright with some forces abandoning land checks for sporting rifle applications but others have not. There is a good case for land checks to be scrapped by all forces which BASC has been advocating in meetings with PCCs.
That is just the tip of the iceberg of inconsistency of approach across forces as underlined in this BASC report:
BASC publishes most comprehensive firearms licensing report to date
BASC has published a major new report reviewing the performance of police firearms licensing departments in England and Wales.
As for OP some general advice below and if they are a BASC member best to contact our firearms team.
Firearm certificate ‘open’ conditions
Conditions are a method available to police to regulate the behaviour of certificate holders. We explain what this means in practical terms.
Rifles, Calibres and Land: Advice for Firearms Enquiry Officers
A broad overview of advice and guidance related to key terminology and designed to assist police firearms enquiry officers
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
You cannot "classify" land in that you as ask an open-FAC holder if they can walk the land and then declare it safe for this or that calibre of rifle. But see the last paragraph below.
All that an open-FAC allows the holder of such to do is shoot on any land over which they have permission to shoot. In an extreme case this may even be shooting a marauding deer stripping bark from trees in someone's orchard. But that they can do that with their open-FAC does not at all in any way then mean that such land has become "cleared" for others who do not have an open-FAC to shoot over.
You could nevertheless shoot over the land under the "estate rifle" rules. These are quite limited in what is permitted. Be certain of that.
So be aware that the "estate rifle" clause again is essentially restricted to a guest using a rifle owned by the host on their FAC (that is the person who holds the sporting rights to shoot over the land) accompanied by the host of by the host. It does not entitle you to shoot unaccompanied nor to use when accompanied any other rifle as in a rifle that you own.
I’m surprised that the police would want the responsible of saying yes or no to a piece of land, your health, mental and otherwise is not theirs any more and them saying yes or no won’t help if there is a problem. Let’s face it you could stand on one spot, look north south east and west and have four different answers as to what constitutes suitable. I would ask for your certificate to be open, I think that mine says ‘anywhere the holder has permission’ Just remember the ultimate responsibility lies with the person who pulls the trigger.
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
I had this thirty years ago when I had an open certificate for "shooting deer" for my .270 Winchester as it was then how these things were worded in the days before "AOLQ" became the words used.
I spoke with my Constabulary saying that if I were shooting on the estate I then shot over and the stalker asked me to shoot a fox I would have to refuse. As it held grouse (and black game). At which, subsequently, that would likely turn out to be my last outing there.
So my certificate was then altered to be an open certificate for "shooting deer and foxes". TIM.243 gives you good advice based on his own experience and mine was the same. So ask. They may say yes.
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It must be fifty years since I have seen this land cleared for... rubbish. The county I was in then tried it out, but when three of us suggested that the Chief.C. might be in trouble if anything went wrong with a calibre he'd cleared he could be in trouble they removed the condition.
Never had it anywhere since in England or Scotland since. Just rifles to be used for whatever over land on which the fac holder has permission ( or similar).
Never had it anywhere since in England or Scotland since. Just rifles to be used for whatever over land on which the fac holder has permission ( or similar).
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
@Conor O'Gorman
If I may just...
The sooner this utter nonsense is consigned to the waste bin of history the better.
It has served no useful purpose in keeping the public safe. It is 'enforced' by those, who are often, not the best 'qualified' to do so.
It is not policed. It is un-policable (I may have just invented that word). It is utterly...
Police Scotland no longer conduct this futile exercise; I am pleased to read that other Forces south of the wall (yes they are 'Forces' and not 'Services') are following suit. They all need to get on board with it.
If you are 'safe' to be issued with a firearm (any firearm), then it has to be the case that the 'buck' stops with you - (See what happened there?)
If I may draw your attention to this book, and Chapter 3, which says:-
- Has anyone ever, (in the history of the world) been prosecuted for using a firearm of an 'unsuitable' calibre for any land 'deemed suitable' by the Chief Constable for a 'different' calibre?
Christ!
This stuff does nothing for my angina!
I have a .375 and it came (over fifteen years ago) with 'Open' conditions. During a recent variation (not related), it came back conditioned only for Scotland!
A pal in same County had the same happen to him.
The FEO agreed this was nonsense and said he would get it changed back.
It never happened. Utter, utter nonsense.
I am heading North next month on the Sika Stags. I will be taking the .375 - where (apparently) I can be trusted six inches north of the Wall, but not six inches south of it.
Bastard thing.
I don't even like it, but that is not the point!
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The certificate says the Chief Constable may impose restrictions.
Restrictions are entirely that, hence approved ranges only complies with the legislation.
Granting consent to use a rifle on X land isn't a restriction, it's a bad application of the law. When via this convoluted route they produce an open FAC, they achieve what the law intended and exactly the same as if there were no additional conditions, i,e, a blank certificate.
We have become acustomed to this tedious and pointless brurecacy. Time for a change.
Restrictions are entirely that, hence approved ranges only complies with the legislation.
Granting consent to use a rifle on X land isn't a restriction, it's a bad application of the law. When via this convoluted route they produce an open FAC, they achieve what the law intended and exactly the same as if there were no additional conditions, i,e, a blank certificate.
We have become acustomed to this tedious and pointless brurecacy. Time for a change.
There are better backstops (mountains) in Scotland could be one reason !
Swedish
Well-Known Member
On the subject of clearance, apropos of nothing really but quite amusing. When I took my DSC1 a few years ago there was a retired fast jet pilot on the same course. He was enjoying some range time with the tutor's stalking rifle. Whilst we were chatting I quipped that it was perhaps a little mundane compared to what he was used to. "On the contrary" he replied "I'm rather enjoying the precision of it all, normally I'm happy when the bullets stay in the same county!"
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
For those forces that have scrapped land checks the conditions on a FAC continue to be decided on a case by case basis depending on all sorts of parameters as regards the applicant's requests and experience, and decision making processes that are force specific and sometimes even FEO specific, as outlined in the BASC webpages linked above and again here:
Firearm certificate ‘open’ conditions
Conditions are a method available to police to regulate the behaviour of certificate holders. We explain what this means in practical terms.
basc.org.uk
Rifles, Calibres and Land: Advice for Firearms Enquiry Officers
A broad overview of advice and guidance related to key terminology and designed to assist police firearms enquiry officers
basc.org.uk
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
A German anecdote from WWII and Normandy. Told to me by a August Pinger an ex Fallschirmjager who stayed on in England after WWII and married a black Antiguan woman and had two kids with her. They used to go to the same church as I was married in. So not all that wore the hooked cross were Nazis.
Anyway. When the RAF 'planes bombed we took cover. When the Luftwaffe 'planes bombed the British took cover. But when the American 'planes bombed then everybody took cover.
Indeed the USAAF managed even to kill, by bombing, in Normandy, one of its own Brigadiers.
Lesley J. McNair - Wikipedia
So Mr Pinger did indeed speak true. Lovely man and lovely wife. Although when he first attended the church he wondered why they were playing Nazi songs! They used to run a delicatessen up in Highfields, Leicester.
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Just as a point of interest, back in the day did Scottish FEO's get on their bikes and 'clear' each-and-every piece of Highland Forestry Commission Scotland land so both Wildlife Rangers and The Commission's "Clients" were able to cull the deer therein?
K
K
I think this is very force specific and is certainly not the case here
monarman
Well-Known Member
All this land clearing thing is a bit ironic and annoying...
I've recently moved county and also renewing my licenses at the same time... I've had an open ticket for nearly 30 years and worked as a professional Wildlife Manager. My renewal has insisted I have to lost an area of land I have permission to shoot.... so I did.... I then get a phone call saying the land is on their system as only passed for 22.250... to which i reply it shouldn't matter as I have an open ticket. I get told that In order to satisfied 'good reason' aspect i have to name some land... i then happen to mention that the land in question is part of a 50000 acre estate that has an employed deer manager who by law cannot use a 22.250 to control deer...
That moved the goalposts a bit!!
I've recently moved county and also renewing my licenses at the same time... I've had an open ticket for nearly 30 years and worked as a professional Wildlife Manager. My renewal has insisted I have to lost an area of land I have permission to shoot.... so I did.... I then get a phone call saying the land is on their system as only passed for 22.250... to which i reply it shouldn't matter as I have an open ticket. I get told that In order to satisfied 'good reason' aspect i have to name some land... i then happen to mention that the land in question is part of a 50000 acre estate that has an employed deer manager who by law cannot use a 22.250 to control deer...
That moved the goalposts a bit!!
That and the fact he came across as a bit of a tool I’d imagineThe only one person not a police officer able to clear land was Chasey , and he was kicked out of the site for this very reason
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