Non toxic ammo advice please.

co’den

Well-Known Member
I’m currently, fairly impatiently, waiting on my FAC coming though. While I’ve been waiting, I’ve had plenty of time to consider equipment, training, insurance and other rammel, but one thing I’m stuck on is ammo. Hopefully some of you might be able to offer some advice.
I’ve been researching non toxic ammo and I’m definitely keen to use it from day 1. I’m brand new to non toxic as the last stalking I did was around 2003 when it wasn’t really a ‘thing’. However, from what I can gather, there seems to be 2 schools of thought. Light and fast or heavy and not so fast. There also seems to be a preference for reloading. Obviously, with the price of everything, I’m not over keen to spend much time on testing.
What I’m looking for initially is a couple of factory ammo options which fit the heavy and not so fast category. I’ll likely end up reloading at some point but, baby steps and all that.
I’ll be using a Sako 75, .270 on Roe and Sika mainly. Looking at the ground I have permission on, I think I’ll be shooting in the 80 to 150m range, maybe 200m occasionally.
So, what’s worth a look while I’m getting to grips with it all?
 
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Firstly you may as well buy a couple of boxes of cheaper lead ammo. You will get through them zeroing your rifle and becoming familiar with how it shoots. Putting a few dozen rounds through at 50-200 yards will be time well spent- especially if you try to replicate stalking conditions eg off sticks etc. Factory lead will be cheap.

Secondly- I'm not sure where you read that slow and heavy rounds are a viable option for lead free. Wherever it was- its wrong. 200m is quite far for lead free. Espeically on Sika. A heavy lead free bullet will not expand brilliantly at 200m. A light fast one will perform better. 200m is still quite far though.

Lead free needs to be FAST to work best. You get speed by keeping the weight low for the calibre. With a 270- this is probably around 110-120gr.

Finally- all factory lead free rounds work fairly well. The best ammo is the one that groups well in your rifle. Buy 2-3 different makes and try them at say 150 yards on a still day. See what groups best and then buy a few boxes. Anything that groups at 2" at 150 yards is more than good enough.
 
Firstly you may as well buy a couple of boxes of cheaper lead ammo. You will get through them zeroing your rifle and becoming familiar with how it shoots. Putting a few dozen rounds through at 50-200 yards will be time well spent- especially if you try to replicate stalking conditions eg off sticks etc. Factory lead will be cheap.

Secondly- I'm not sure where you read that slow and heavy rounds are a viable option for lead free. Wherever it was- its wrong. 200m is quite far for lead free. Espeically on Sika. A heavy lead free bullet will not expand brilliantly at 200m. A light fast one will perform better. 200m is still quite far though.

Lead free needs to be FAST to work best. You get speed by keeping the weight low for the calibre. With a 270- this is probably around 110-120gr.

Finally- all factory lead free rounds work fairly well. The best ammo is the one that groups well in your rifle. Buy 2-3 different makes and try them at say 150 yards on a still day. See what groups best and then buy a few boxes. Anything that groups at 2" at 150 yards is more than good enough.
Not sure that lead free are a sub 200m only type bullet. Monolithic bullets work perfectly well out to well over 300 metres, and Sika deer really do not like them. Plenty of game is being taken with monolithics out to 500.

There are plenty of good options in 270. Fox, Barnes, RWS, Yewtree, Norma all produce good ammo that is well proven.

Lead bullets kill by fragmenting and send a shower of lead fragments through the animal. Depending on point of impact will depend on how quick they kill. Wound channel is typically much wider a couple of inches after entry. Given the fragmentation of the lead bullet typically 50% remains in one piece to provide an exit hole. If you are shooting bigger animals you need a bigger calibre / bigger bullet / lower velocity so the bullet stays together till it reaches the vitals.

By comparison modern monolithic bullets are designed so that on impact the front opens into a flower shape two to three times diameter, but the bullet remains in one piece.

The bullet cuts a round hole, like a hole saw right the way through the animal. Remaining in one piece, the bullet retains the energy and momentum to go right the way through the vitals. The flat shape of the flower provides a temporary cavity of perhaps 4 to 5 inches in diameter causing additional damage.

Putting such a bullet through the major arteries and central nervous system results in usual collapse on the spot and major loss of blood.

There is much less damage to meat, so much so that you can afford to shoot in line with the leg half way up. This results in taking out the aorta, top of the heart and major nerves in the shoulders, around the heart and into the spine. Animal quartering is not an issue either.

Frankly there are no real life issues with good monolithics. There are some that are less good and/ or designed for much tougher game than we shoot in the UK. The original Barnes being an example - very good on big antelope, whereas their TTSX is designed for deer.

Dont go heavy for calibre, you will tend to get better results with lighter bullets. So with 270, the 110gn bullets will be the length of a 130.

Some will shout about BC. Bullet density is just one factor, bullet length, shape and velocity are other just as, if not more important factors. A mono bullet will have a better BC than lead bullet of the same weight, due to its longer length.

Most mono bullets have driving bands and / or grooves, so there is surface area in contact with the bore of the rifle. This usually result in a higher velocity compared to traditional bullets of the same weight.

Prices of all ammo has gone up hugely, but there is not a lot of difference in price in ammo with a premium bullet whether it’s a mono, partition bonded etc.

If I was recommending one brand it would be the Fox. They are unfussy bullet that seems to work well in most rifles being a flat based cone point. Some would opine that the shape is not that sexy with a sleek ogive. Plenty of dead deer would disagree.

Monolithics are different to old lead bullets. They take a slightly different mindset, as many of old norms need rethinking. But most who have tried them won’t go back.
 
As it looks like you are in Perth head down to Bushwear and pick up a box of the Sako Powerhead II with the 110 grain Barnes TTSX and a box of the Sako blade with 120 grain bullet. Test them both for accuracy. If no good then try the RWS Evo green and the Hornady CX. All will work, especially if you bring your point of aim forwardsso that you are in line with the centre of the front leg and half way up the body.
 
There are two downsides to monolithics

1) you tend not to get the thwack of the bullet hitting an animal.

2) a monolithic is probably not the bullet to use if you like lung shots. They work akin to taking a piece of 1” tube and using to cut a round hole right the way through. On lung tissue this will cut through a number of small blood vessels and bleed out may take some time.

A lead soft point or SST bullet on the other hand will fragment causing multiple cutting of lots of blood vessels in the lung tissue and flying through the diagrahm into the blood vessels around the liver and rumen. Some may go through to the heart. In my experience lung shot animals can often take several moments before they expire, and can often run quite a distance. I have shot a couple of reds with monolithics further back than I would have liked. One ran a good couple of hundred yards before wobbling and falling over dead, the other just stood stiff legged with blood pouring out of its nose so shot it again.

There are some lead free cored bullets now on the market. They use a zinc rather than lead core. I have seen fellow stalkers use Geco Zero - they make a real mess and look as if a grenade has gone off inside the animal. Lots of bruising of meat etc. A good killing bullet perhaps, but you end up with a lot of meat contaminated with zinc rather than lead particles.
 
I haven't touched lead in over 10 years apart of rimfire calibers.
For .270 start with the 120 grain Sako Blade, very accurate round and i have taken fallow with them up to 300 meters without problems.
Barnes are also good bullets and they do 110 and 130 grains as well.
 
@Heym SR20

I didn't say lead free are a sub 200m tool.

I said that "heavy lead free at 200m is quite far espeicailly on tough animals like sika because it won't expand brilliantly" I also meant It's also quite far for any bullet when the OP hasn't shot quarry for 20 years"

We are both agreeing that light for calibre works best for lead free.

Don't want to turn it into a lead vs lead free debate :)
 
I’m currently, fairly impatiently, waiting on my FAC coming though. While I’ve been waiting, I’ve had plenty of time to consider equipment, training, insurance and other rammel, but one thing I’m stuck on is ammo. Hopefully some of you might be able to offer some advice.
I’ve been researching non toxic ammo and I’m definitely keen to use it from day 1. I’m brand new to non toxic as the last stalking I did was around 2003 when it wasn’t really a ‘thing’. However, from what I can gather, there seems to be 2 schools of thought. Light and fast or heavy and not so fast. There also seems to be a preference for reloading. Obviously, with the price of everything, I’m not over keen to spend much time on testing.
What I’m looking for initially is a couple of factory ammo options which fit the heavy and not so fast category. I’ll likely end up reloading at some point but, baby steps and all that.
I’ll be using a Sako 75, .270 on Roe and Sika mainly. Looking at the ground I have permission on, I think I’ll be shooting in the 80 to 150m range, maybe 200m occasionally.
So, what’s worth a look while I’m getting to grips with it all?

Keep it simple and try Sako 110gr or 120gr I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

A LOT of people use the 110gr TTSX bullet very effectively for all deer.
 
I've been using non-toxic for a number of years on reds without complaint. I've only recently started using them on roe, previously i had been put off using the .270 on roe as I found the exit somewhat large, but that was with 130g lead. I've been fairly please with non-toxic on the roe as it was less damaging to the carcass. Have a look at Wapiti, they have been getting some good press and about to release a .270 120g. A UK based manufacturer as a bonus
 
IMG_8655.webpIMG_8654.webpIMG_7813.webpHere is an RWS 140gn 7mm bullet I recovered from a Sika / Red Hybrid. It was built like a sika but more the size of a red stag. He responded to a whistle and came out of the woods stomping around the bulldog in Tom and Jerry. I shot him at about 80 yards as he turned away from me and lowered his head. Bullet entered behind the right shoulder and raked right the way through hitting the spine at the base of the neck and coming to a halt at the far side just under the neck skin.

He collapsed from sight as fell into the boundary drainage ditch four foot down.

I believe RWS use a nickel plated Barnes manufactured bullet. I include the factory load data, and the 270 version will be pretty similar if not flatter shooting.
 
Please do not think I am having a go - I am not.

It is not "non-toxic".

To refer to it as such, plays into the hands of those who would ban all 'toxic' bullets.

Everything in excess is 'toxic' (including online feedback)...
Shhhhh! Don’t tell everyone that. They’ll try and ban copper too….
 
Please do not think I am having a go - I am not.

It is not "non-toxic".

To refer to it as such, plays into the hands of those who would ban all 'toxic' bullets.

Everything in excess is 'toxic' (including online feedback)...



View attachment 378669View attachment 378670View attachment 378671😇
Even more accuracy. Lead isn't toxic.

Poisonous, yes. Really nasty stuff that has no safe lower limit and shouldn't be used if you intend to eat the animal.
Toxins are produces by living organisms
 
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