One for one variation.

[JockStalk]

There is no time limit in which to apply for the 1-4-1. You do have to tell them of the disposal in a timely fashion however, but the 1-4-1 can be sent in later once you've had a discussion with the wife about reinvesting the new funds in another firearm.

Sadly not the way it works here. Once sold, you get seven days to request a free one for one, after that it’s a paid for variation. Once the clear slot is granted you can take your time with the spousal negotiations

 

[wytonpjs]

Sadly not the way it works here. Once sold, you get seven days to request a free one for one, after that it’s a paid for variation. Once the clear slot is granted you can take your time with the spousal negotiations

And here in Avon & Somerset.

 

[M@tt]

Let them get away with it for long enough and it becomes the norm.

It would be interesting to see what they say if you asked why they think it's ok to go against the HO published guidance, best practice.
Get this reply in writing.

 

[MAH]

what if for some bizarre reason it is refused? You are left with no ability to collect a rifle that you have paid for and is not sitting with an RFD potentially accumulating storage charges….

Forgive me for being devil's advocate, but why did you pay in full for something you didn't have a permission to aquire ?
M

 

[Sonicdmb73]

Seems to be the case that the disposal does need to come first -

“One for one” variations​

10.36 A variation is always necessary if a certificate holder wishes to change one of the firearms, even if they wish to purchase one identical to the one they are selling (Wilson v Coombe, Queen’s Bench Divisional Court, July 1988). “One for one” variation refers to firearms that are authorised to be acquired following the disposal of a firearm or a request to change an existing authority to acquire. There is no set time in which the certificate holder must apply for a replacement authority once their firearm is disposed of. The keeping of open authorities indefinitely should be discouraged, subject to a collector seeking particular firearms. Applications for “one for one” variations should be made by the certificate holder submitting their firearm certificate together with a completed Form 201V to the police firearms licensing department. Such variations are processed free of charge. In most cases, it will not be necessary to re-examine the applicant’s circumstances. Further enquiries will be necessary, however, if for example the application is for a change of use or for a full-bore firearm when the holder’s shooting club only has facilities for small-bore shooting.

As Gixer has posted the appropriate section of HOG, I have highlighted the relevant parts, (I have had Lancs try tell me there's a seven day limit too) You pay if you are increasing the number held.

I had to clear my slot first then had seven days to apply for a replacement slot/ authority to acquire. If not done within seven days then it was going to be charged for as a variation.

“The FEO is saying that now you need to first dispose of the current .243 with a RFD, then apply for the OfO variation to be able to collect the new .243….”

so this is correct then.

From my aging memory, you cannot pay in full for a section 1 firearm that you do not have authority to posses that is against the firearms act.

It is an offence to try buy a firearm that you do not have "Authority to Posses", so nobody should be putting deposits unless they have a "slot" for it.

In the UK, attempting to purchase a firearm without the lawful authority, such as a valid firearms certificate, is a serious offense under the Firearms Act 1968. Specifically, Section 1(1)(a) of the Act makes it illegal to "purchase or acquire, a firearm to which this section applies without holding a firearm certificate in force at the time". This includes both firearms and ammunition.

You are entirely correct - Countryman of Derby alerted me to this recently so I paid all but £10

Moreover, they would only shop the rifle to my nominated RFD if I sent them my licence with the new slot in it first so they could add the details to my licence. Once the variation arrived, I drove up to Derby to get it in person rather bothering my local RFD. The moderator arrived direct from the supplying RFD to my RFD and the latter added that to my FAC

So many interpretations.

Am I to assume the moderator came from the same RFD as the rifle? If so they contradicted their own statement (of the only legal way to sell at distance) and sent it to be added by the receiving RFD.
If not them then whoever the RFD was didn't abide by the letter of the law.

 

[timbrayford]

A deposit doesn't necessarily equate to possession

 

[M@tt]

You are entirely correct - Countryman of Derby alerted me to this recently so I paid all but £10

Moreover, they would only shop the rifle to my nominated RFD if I sent them my licence with the new slot in it first so they could add the details to my licence. Once the variation arrived, I drove up to Derby to get it in person rather bothering my local RFD. The moderator arrived direct from the supplying RFD to my RFD and the latter added that to my FAC

So many interpretations.

The seller has to fill in the FAC details on table 1 (or 2 if ammo) and this procedure is written on the FAC for all to read. Please read and abide by the conditions on the FAC as it is an offence not to comply with them (also written on the certificate).

With regard to your mod, it would appear your rfd bought it from the suppliers and sold it to you. If so then everything is above board.
However, if you somehow managed to buy the mod from the suppliers and got them to ship to your RFD, who wrote it on your FAC, then that is wrong and against the conditions on your FAC and against the law.

The HO sent a reminder to FLDs and by inference, to RFDs, about this some years ago as many were not doing it correctly.

 

[Pete1774]

I haven’t done a OfO variation for a while - previously (rightly or wrongly) you would put in for the OfO and a condition was written that for example of if I want to acquire a new .243 I need to dispose of my current .243 first.

The FEO is saying that now you need to first dispose of the current .243 with a RFD, then apply for the OfO variation to be able to collect the new .243….

The issue I have with this is of you dispose of your current .243, then put in for the new .243 - what if for some bizarre reason it is refused? You are left with no ability to collect a rifle that you have paid for and is not sitting with an RFD potentially accumulating storage charges….

What are others take on this?

Regards,
Gixer

I've done a couple of 1for 1 variations with Lincs online and in each case I got a temporary permit for the old rifle for 14 or maybe 28 days, can't remember.

 

[gixer1]

Forgive me for being devil's advocate, but why did you pay in full for something you didn't have a permission to aquire ?
M

I didn’t….

 

[Sonicdmb73]

A deposit doesn't necessarily equate to possession

They are two different offences. It is an offence to attempt to purchase. There is no mention in that (that I'm aware of) that states that to commit the offence you must also be in possession of the firearm. It is the act of trying to obtain one.

 

[moeggesit]

I haven’t done a OfO variation for a while - previously (rightly or wrongly) you would put in for the OfO and a condition was written that for example of if I want to acquire a new .243 I need to dispose of my current .243 first.

The FEO is saying that now you need to first dispose of the current .243 with a RFD, then apply for the OfO variation to be able to collect the new .243….

The issue I have with this is of you dispose of your current .243, then put in for the new .243 - what if for some bizarre reason it is refused? You are left with no ability to collect a rifle that you have paid for and is not sitting with an RFD potentially accumulating storage charges….

What are others take on this?

Regards,
Gixer

Essex and others would usually vary the certificate and add a condition dispose the old rifle within one month of acquiring the replacement, and then to return the certificate to remover the “extra” slot. A fee is not due unless you are increasing the number of firearms held, which you are not.

There is no expiry of the spare, for one-for-one and no requirement to immediately apply for the variation.

 

[moeggesit]

They are two different offences. It is an offence to attempt to purchase. There is no mention in that (that I'm aware of) that states that to commit the offence you must also be in possession of the firearm. It is the act of trying to obtain one.

By that logic so is applying for a SGC or FAC.

The offence to at attempt to obtain illegally, by keeping a firearm aside while a variation go through is by no stretch an attempt to obtain illegally or without permission.

 

[timbrayford]

They are two different offences. It is an offence to attempt to purchase. There is no mention in that (that I'm aware of) that states that to commit the offence you must also be in possession of the firearm. It is the act of trying to obtain one.

Putting a deposit down is just that, pending an fac variation, its a good will gesture of intent, and is no more an attempt to possess than merely applying for the variation itself.

 

[weblyish]

Putting a deposit down is just that, pending an fac variation, its a good will gesture of intent, and is no more an attempt to possess than merely applying for the variation itself.

Putting down any sort of deposit on a firearm you cannot possess is an offence

however making a gracious donation to an RFD who then choses for his own good reasons to hold a rifle back from sale for a bit is perfectly fine
should you at a later date purchase said rifle that is also fine

(similar situation arises with under 18s - an rfd can gift it to the teen if they have an FAC - if someone decides the generously donate some cash to such a kind local business owner that is fine)

 

[timbrayford]

Putting down any sort of deposit on a firearm you cannot possess is an offence

however making a gracious donation to an RFD who then choses for his own good reasons to hold a rifle back from sale for a bit is perfectly fine
should you at a later date purchase said rifle that is also fine

(similar situation arises with under 18s - an rfd can gift it to the teen if they have an FAC - if someone decides the generously donate some cash to such a kind local business owner that is fine)

We'll agree to differ

 

[M@tt]

...

 

[Sonicdmb73]

By that logic so is applying for a SGC or FAC.

The offence to at attempt to obtain illegally, by keeping a firearm aside while a variation go through is by no stretch an attempt to obtain illegally or without permission.

Not at all, it is an offence to try obtain without lawful consent. Applying for FAC/SGC is getting the aforementioned lawful consent.

Putting a deposit down is just that, pending an fac variation, it's a good will gesture of intent, and is no more an attempt to possess than merely applying for the variation itself.

You may see it that way, and I did previously. But it is written in black and white in the firearms act. It was a RFD that pointed it out to me. The other point he made was just because nobody gets prosecuted for putting down a deposit, doesn't mean you're not breaking the law. Just look at how long long distance sales were do incorrectly (till someone decided to enforce the legal method).

 

[Rake Aboot]

Sounds like lots of folk make rods for their own back

 

[timbrayford]

Not at all, it is an offence to try obtain without lawful consent. Applying for FAC/SGC is getting the aforementioned lawful consent.

You may see it that way, and I did previously. But it is written in black and white in the firearms act. It was a RFD that pointed it out to me. The other point he made was just because nobody gets prosecuted for putting down a deposit, doesn't mean you're not breaking the law. Just look at how long long distance sales were do incorrectly (till someone decided to enforce the legal method).

And you have evidence of multiple convictions for this?

 

[Sonicdmb73]

And you have evidence of multiple convictions for this?

There were 140 people convicted of illegal possession of a firearm in 2018, the statistics don't break down the individual reasons behind them.
The firearms Act 1968 doesn't give exemptions for putting a deposit down and getting a variation later. It is a simple single sentence. Choose to interpret it as you please.