POLL - Are you happy to pay for a medical certificate?

[nforster]

And for which you have paid the stipulated fee.

i think the police will likely increase the fee to approx £400 to cover costs

 

[Highlandsjohn]

Lots of GP bashing here
im a GP who also shoots. I know most local shooters and have had discussions with basic about this.
just to make completely clear- this is not an NHS service and so those who say they have paid for this service through taxation are completely wrong. The NHS contracts me to provide a range of services but many are not funded- same with DVLA , employment medical, insurance certificates etc. The time of the GPs and secretaries I employ has to be paid for.
the initial form appears to be a simple tick box but really the problem with it is it is an attempt by the police to divert liability and blame should something go wrong- onto the GP. There is also a lot of trawling through notes and the perpetual need to inform the police re potential medical issues of a firearm holder.
it is a terrible solution to the licensing problem. It discourages patients to seek help with mental problems, further stigmatises mental health and I doubt it is very good at preventing problems.
the other Gp's will not do the form as it's non-contractual. We charge approx £15 for secretarial time.
but it's probably best to remember that your gp will be extremely busy and dealing with the care of sick patients, non- contractual forms may not be their top priority.

"the initial form appears to be a simple tick box but really the problem with it is it is an attempt by the police to divert liability and blame should something go wrong- onto the GP."

Exactly what this is all about. john

 

[teabag_46]

my time and my employees time is not free

Yes, we all know and understand that; I want to ask though, if the police were to ask you to attend and give an opinion on whether someone they had arrested, was fit to be questioned, would you bill the police, or the person that they had arrested?

Hypothetical situation I know.

 

[Essex stalker]

On a similar basis, if you saw a crime being committed would you charge the police for the time you spent giving them a statement ?

 

[nforster]

Yes, we all know and understand that; I want to ask though, if the police were to ask you to attend and give an opinion on whether someone they had arrested, was fit to be questioned, would you bill the police, or the person that they had arrested?

Hypothetical situation I know.

i would not attend- as i have no contract to do that ( and im likely to be already doing something else)- in the olden days the police used to ask gps to attend such instances- there was a statutory attendance fee- then it became a forensic medical officer role who held a contract and was paid a fee for service.

GPs are not only being asked about the fitness now- but to predict the future fitness- which is unreasonable.

 

[nforster]

that would not be a professional opinion.
we claim a fee for professional court opinion

 

[Dalua]

"the initial form appears to be a simple tick box but really the problem with it is it is an attempt by the police to divert liability and blame should something go wrong- onto the GP."

Exactly what this is all about. john

That might be what it's trying to do - I don't know.

However, I think that if any GP thought that answering questions of fact based on their medical notes was likely to make them responsible in that way then they wouldn't touch it with a bargepole - even for lots of money.

 

[teabag_46]

i would not attend- as i have no contract to do that ( and im likely to be already doing something else)- in the olden days the police used to ask gps to attend such instances- there was a statutory attendance fee- then it became a forensic medical officer role who held a contract and was paid a fee for service.

GPs are not only being asked about the fitness now- but to predict the future fitness- which is unreasonable.

So it was the police (the customer) who had to pay! Why not in this instance?

that would not be a professional opinion.
we claim a fee for professional court opinion

And again, the customer (court/police) that is billed, not the subject/object of your professional opinion, unless, obviously, the customer is the defence lawyer!

 

[Dalua]

- but to predict the future fitness- which is unreasonable.

It is indeed ridiculous - and I hope that the FLDs are being put right on the limitations of the clairvoyant ability of medical practitioners (even forensic psychs) in this regard.

Perhaps the obvious unreasonableness of requests couched in terms of prediction of future risk will help GPs feel less concerned about the amount of liability they feel they're taking on themselves by responding?

However, though interesting, this is also not relevant to the actual question of this thread.

 

[I. Farticus]

Perhaps the obvious unreasonableness of requests couched in terms of prediction of future risk will help GPs feel less concerned about the amount of liability they feel they're taking on themselves by responding?
.

Or by not... They don't have to, and we can then get our certificates

 

[nforster]

It is indeed ridiculous - and I hope that the FLDs are being put right on the limitations of the clairvoyant ability of medical practitioners (even forensic psychs) in this regard.

Perhaps the obvious unreasonableness of requests couched in terms of prediction of future risk will help GPs feel less concerned about the amount of liability they feel they're taking on themselves by responding?

However, though interesting, this is also not relevant to the actual question of this thread.

i mark the form that i am unable to predict future risk, anyways, must get back to surgery, i love a debate on this issue, the BMA were terrible on this issue, lots of GPs will not touch this with a very long bargepole. lol, cheers all.

 

[Dalua]

Or by not... They don't have to, and we can then get our certificates

Again, we're probably getting all in a muddle about whether we mean the initial questionnaire or a subsequent request for a 'proper' medical report. I imagine nforster was referring to the latter when he described the FLD's request for paramedical crystal-ball-gazing. That clearly should not be part of the initial approach from the FLD?

The question here is still one of who pays the GP (if at all) for either activity. For me, any such costs must be covered by the FLD.

Straightforward, really - the HO changes the rules and the costs go up: we can't accept a position where every time they do that we have to pay the bill. Who knows where it would end - apart from increasingly expensive for shooters.
No. If the HO wants a more extensive system of medical input to improve public safety, then they public should pay for it.

 

[nforster]

Or by not... They don't have to, and we can then get our certificates

lol- the form says that if we do not respond then the police assume there is no issue- which actually puts the liability back to the gp, anyway, must get back to work.

 

[nforster]

Again, we're probably getting all in a muddle about whether we mean the initial questionnaire and subsequent request for proper medical reports. I imagine our nforster was referring to the latter when he described the FLD's request for paramedical crystal-ball-gazing. That clearly should not be part of the initial approach from the FLD?

The question here is still one of who pays the GP (if at all) for either activity. For me, any such costs must be covered by the FLD. Straightforward, really.

the crystal ball gazing is the first initial contact,,
i do actually agree that the firearms department should pay all costs related to third party work,. but they wont.

 

[teabag_46]

i mark the form that i am unable to predict future risk, anyways, must get back to surgery, i love a debate on this issue, the BMA were terrible on this issue, lots of GPs will not touch this with a very long bargepole. lol, cheers all.

Thanks for taking the time, and having the nerve to fight your corner - even without us having an appointment

 

[zambezi]

Again, we're probably getting all in a muddle about whether we mean the initial questionnaire and subsequent request for proper medical reports. I imagine our nforster was referring to the latter when he described the FLD's request for paramedical crystal-ball-gazing. That clearly should not be part of the initial approach from the FLD?

The question here is still one of who pays the GP (if at all) for either activity. For me, any such costs must be covered by the FLD. Straightforward, really.

How about this for a working model:

FLD pays £10 admin fee for GP to complete initial tick box response. [I realise that cost will likely be rolled up in future 10-year FAC pricing, but invisible/negligible to FAC applicant at this point]
FAC applicant pays £15-£20 supplementary fee if GP has to write a report. [nobody's time is free, payment must come from somewhere - subject is primary beneficiary of good outcome]

 

[Dalua]

lol- the form says that if we do not respond then the police assume there is no issue- which actually puts the liability back to the gp, anyway, must get back to work.

D'you think it does? I'm not sure that would really wash, unless they had proof you'd actually received the form - though perhaps they send them recorded delivery?

In any case, it sounds as though sending your perfectly accurate response about not being able to predict future risk is a good investment in terms of time spent vs. possible liability avoided.

 

[nforster]

How about this for a working model:

FLD pays £10 admin fee for GP to complete initial tick box response. [I realise that cost will likely be rolled up in future 10-year FAC pricing, but invisible/negligible to FAC applicant at this point]
FAC applicant pays £15-£20 supplementary fee if GP has to write a report. [nobody's time is free, payment must come from somewhere - subject is primary beneficiary of good outcome]

lol £10
even a simple record search and response will take 15mins + secretarial time posting + coding.
problem is most people have no concept of the costs involved in your "free NHS"
for example a 30min medical and opinion would be £150

 

[Hornet 6]

there have been many suicides with legally held firearms, it still has a great impact on those left behind.

If someone wants to end it all, what the hell has it to do with those left behind.
It isn't as if they are going to assume full responsibility for every aspect of the persons life is it, no matter who they are.

Neil.

 

[nforster]

If someone wants to end it all, what the hell has it to do with those left behind.
It isn't as if they are going to assume full responsibility for every aspect of the persons life is it, no matter who they are.

Neil.

i think i was meaning the impact on a personal level, a friend and neighbour and someone i used to shoot with killed himself with his rifle. (i was not his gp etc) there was no way to predict this, even as a friend. it was a tragic event .
obviously any suicide can be tragic to the family and friends left behind.