Possible serious implications

[teabag_46]

Agriculture Information Sheet No 43

What the law says
Employers and people who ‘conduct an undertaking’
involving the use of guns have a legal duty under the
Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 to take all
reasonably practicable measures so that no one is put
at risk.
In this sense, an ‘undertaking’ does not necessarily
need to involve employment or commercial gain.
The duty may extend to a wide range of individuals,
including farm staff, gamekeepers, beaters, pickers-
up, drivers, guests, volunteers and members of the
public. In addition, employees have responsibilities
for their own health and safety and for that of other
people who may be put at risk by their work

David, I do not doubt what you say, however, I am simply saying that they COULD become involved if they wished - notice how they highlight 'undertaking' in the quoted section from the information sheet. It is done in such a way that should they wish to become involved, they can say the information and guidance is available, and all appropriate parts have been distinguished.
They also, later on in the sheet bring attention to the fact that other laws/rules/guidelines etc. are applicable (which we all know) that govern the use of firearms.

For anyone that wishes to read the guidelines, the link is here - http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ais43.pdf - it is only 3 pages, and is written in plain English.
There is, to be honest nothing in it that most firearms users are not already aware of, especially if you have done any sort of firearms related courses/shoot on ranges, or argue about safety on this very forum!

David, your experience in these matters will count for a lot, but you are neither omnipresent or omniscient so there COULD be occasions where HSE have become involved in firearms related accidents that you are not aware of. (Please do not be offended David; Devils advocate etc. etc.)

 

[David63]

Please rest assured I have not in any way taken offence and I take you point, and as I have said, all shooters have duty of care in law.

BASC have for many years advocated that shooters should conduct a risk assessment of their activities and reassess this every 12 months or after any incident.

In my experience of being involved in just over 1000 shooting accidents, I can recall the HSE being involved in one where a trainee gamekeeper was injured at work and another where the EHO got involved when a beater was shot on commercial shoot, but in all other cases there has been no interest what so over from the enforcing agencies.

Never the less, the risk is there I agree all be it a small one, and having a documented risk assessment is a very powerful 'cover you back' tool. Its easy to complete and there is guidance on the BASC web site here: http://basc.org.uk/sporting-services/health-safety/

David

 

[Jager SA]

Well, I'm glad I posted this thread because if nothing else it has highlighted a number of things SD members and others should be aware of to cover themselves.
In this day and age it doesn't take much for FAC/SG Certs to be revoked and it appears the Police are actively seeking to find ways to do exactly that. If there is anyone not a member of any such shooting organisations, id urge you to seek membership for all the benefits offered, obviously including legal advice on such matters as has been discussed.

Thankfully the person who is involved does belong to BASC and they have been made aware of this.

 

[8x57]

+1 Jager.

Thank you for introducing such an interesting discussion, it's certainly made us all think about a few things.

 

[Pedro]

Jager SA, Yes, a very interesting thread which in the main has managed to avoid the great unwashed chucking comments on that only mirror comments made a few pages ago, but instead has raised some relevant and interesting issues.

Award yourself a wee pat on the back (but do a risk assessment first).

 

[Crosshair243]

Just out of interest though, does the fact that pigeons can only be shot for control purposes under general license not push pigeon shooting slightly more towards being an agricultural task rather than a sporting one?
Very grey area I'd imagine!

Also, relating to previous offences, I got done for driving without due care and attention when I was 18 (silly teenage crash- no alcohol involved) before I even had a FAC. Of course I mentioned it on initial application but then not at my next renewal as it's only offences in the last five years. When applying for my .308 variation last year, the FEO smugly said I had forgotten to mention it!! At which point I showed him a spare application form where it says "only offences in the last five years" and tersely told him it was therefore irrelevant. Sometimes they really don't help themselves do they? Do they deliberately act like fools to test for short tempers

 

[paul o']

no police action +1

but a kick in the bollox for leaving an unattended shotgun and a big look at why ? how could you forgive yourself.

 

[Jager SA]

no police action +1

but a kick in the bollox for leaving an unattended shotgun and a big look at why ? how could you forgive yourself.

I must add, the gun wasn't left unattended, the mentor was there the whole time with the lad. As he grasped the gun it just slipped from his hand, hit the ground and went off. He was attempting to gain control as it did. This is just an accident as I'm sure most will agree.

 

[paul o']

yes feller horrid place to find your self did't it have a mech safety if so was it in good order or was it a manual type again was it applied just thinking how it could in a perfect world be avoided.
We had a nr same thing in a club i belonged to CCC pigeon club a guy took his non member mate out both in the same hide and on both shooting they cross guns and the guy shot his pals fingers off, he was't insured to be there and the guy kept his cert as i was a proved to be accident but the shock made him give up shooting for good .

 

[Jager SA]

yes feller horrid place to find your self did't it have a mech safety if so was it in good order or was it a manual type again was it applied just thinking how it could in a perfect world be avoided.
We had a nr same thing in a club i belonged to CCC pigeon club a guy took his non member mate out both in the same hide and on both shooting they cross guns and the guy shot his pals fingers off, he was't insured to be there and the guy kept his cert as i was a proved to be accident but the shock made him give up shooting for good .

Im sure it was a manual safety, which
was applied. I can only assume the firing pin protruded forward perhaps or the sear just engaged with the shock.

 

[paul o']

not an outcome that any of us would like to be in feller .

 

[Yorkie]

For what it's worth.
I was Hospitalised after being hit by a Forklift at Work. The HSE were not interested and never even gave a visit. The Factory where I work has had one Inspection in 26 years. I was told by an Independent Health and Safety Consultant that they are so underfunded they only Investigate the most Serious Incidents.

Yorkie.

 

[Frank Homes]

Jager

Still unanswered questions- injured party-certificate holder? type and make of gun? How many guns? Who was mentoring who? Ages?

F

 

[Jager SA]

Jager

Still unanswered questions- injured party-certificate holder? type and make of gun? How many guns? Who was mentoring who? Ages?

F

Non cert holder but being mentored by some with 35 years experience. Gun unknown but one of, age of lad 17 I think.

As I said a few posts back, I only posted this for the benefit of everyone.

 

[Si]

Please let us know the eventual outcome of this.... because if this fella loses his guns and SGC, then I for one won't be offering my services as a mentor in a hurry.

 

[Jager SA]

Please let us know the eventual outcome of this.... because if this fella loses his guns and SGC, then I for one won't be offering my services as a mentor in a hurry.

Certainly makes you think! Damned if you do damned if you don't!

 

[Alistair]

Certainly makes you think! Damned if you do damned if you don't!

Hmm, this certainly is worrying, especially if it puts people off mentoring those new to the sport. I was mentored into shotgun shooting by a family friend, to whom I am very grateful and it appears that, at least in some cases, one can only obtain a deer legal calibre for use on live quarry on a FAC, with the help of a mentor. If people are, quite understandably, wary of becoming a mentor due to fears of legal repercussions then what will become of the shooting sports 10 years down the line?

 

[L1A1]

Had a similar but much more serious incident near to me.

The bottom line is that you are responsible for you firearm. What ever is happening to it and for who ever is using it.
You can not lay the fault on anyone else.

 

[billh]

A word for the 'after the event', 'never do anything wrong' barrack room lawyers here.

I used to belong to a gun club specializing in pigeon shooting. A very well experienced shooter was in a hide when a pigeon can over and his S/S muzzle end sight became entangled in the hide netting.

The next thing I get a call to say that the gun had gone off and it had shot the shooter through the palm of the hand just at the base of the 3/4 fingers while untangling the sight.

This person was as safe as anybody I know with a gun but in a moment of inattention it happened.

Other than the gun going to hospital for treatment and not shooting again that was the end of the matter. This was however some 30 years ago.

Morals here:

Try to always only release the safety at the very last moment and slip it back on if no shot.
Never make your hide too small at some point you will get the barrel in the netting.

I'm a great believer in automatic actions at times of inattention so practice, practice, practice all methods of safe shooting it may help later.

 

[Erik Hamburger]

Right chaps, I'm throwing this out into the WWW. Because I see this as a very scary scenario which could have far reaching Concequances in my view but what do you think of the scenario? By the way there's more to the story but I want people's views.

Scenario:

A guy was out with his son and son's friends hide shooting pigeons, all above board I should add.
Anyway the sons friend picked up the gun for a shot but as he did it slipped from his grasp and went off injuring his arm, hospital visit, stitches required not fatal thankfully. Police informed, they attended the hospital clearly an accident...what's the next step?

Let me think. The residential addresses of all involved were raided (Helicopters, armed Police), the legally held firearms were impounded, and any SGCs and FACs were revoked. The H&S Executive was called in and prosecutions initiated. Computers were impounded and forensically investigated, and any contacts found in address books -and all their relatives- are now being closely watched by the security services.