Practical Hunting Accuracy ( PHA )

[howa243]

Hi Howa243,

A number of points:

There seems to be a degree of snobbery going on here. It appears that if you don’t get someone to build a rifle for you in a calibre that demands handloading and if you don’t spend your evenings sitting on your own in an attic, sweating over some powder sales and reloading tables that you are compromising animal welfare.

Bollox. Thats not what is being said or implied.

I would assume if you are stalking with a rifle which is known to be ‘inconsistent’ then you most certainly are compromising animal welfare.

I entirely accept that improvements can be made, margins of error reduced and vast amounts of money spent, but I do not accept that a stalker with a factory rifle, shooting factory ammo is inferior in any way.


Were are discussing accuracy of rifles not the user.

Have you read these posts.

The rifles are usually capable , it is the human element that fails. Just my personal feeling.

Rant over.

How the rifle shoots is secondary to how well the shooter utilizes it. JMHO of course. ~Muir

I certainly believe that many people have taken a sport and turned it into an all consuming academic hobby.

And so what if they do, does it affect you. . Personally Ive been hunting since i was 6 years old. I've hunted all over the world for most species, thats hardly academic. Its my passion in life.

Doesn’t affect me at all and what’s more I can understand it. However in the 44 years I have been shooting my experiences have lead me in a different direction to you.

Life is experienced at many different levels.

I couldn’t agree more. Experience leads one to have opinions that may differ from others. Doesn’t make them right or wrong, but the certainty behind how those opinions are communicated can imply that.

 

[Brithunter]

Hmmmm perhaps I can gain some insight here now I have expended quite a bit of ammo getting used to my 25-06 and finding out what it likes first without a sound moderator and now with one. Now the other day I purchased a 9-13" Bi-Pod off David from the forums and tried it out on the rifle and found that I have to learn a new technique as it shot high witht he Bi-Pod fitted. Although I had a higher Bi-pod for some years I never used it except a few times at the range.

Now do others notice a point of impact change when using a Bi-Pod?

Before the Bi-Pod a sand bag had been used to sight in the rifle but I always hold the forestock and just use the bag as rest as one would do with something in the field. If I "load" the legs of the Bi-Pod with some forwards pressure the POI is about the same as using my sand bag but getting the same pressure every time will take a bit of practice.

Is this normal when using a Bi-Pod or am I doing something really wrong? Perhaps I should try the Bi-Pod on another rifle and see if I get the same result.

 

[MarkH]

Hi Guys

Lets read the original post again

Having seen discussions on rifle accuracy and seen spending loads of money to gain almost nothing , I just wanted to know what you forum users see as practical hunting accuracy for stalking deer . Not for foxes.
This for body shots or head/neck shots at reasonable range .
I would see this in a deer rifle for UK use both on the hill and in the forrest . Rifles in the 243/270/308/30-06 class .

The bottom line is that almost all well looked after modern factory rifles and factory ammo are still more accurate and precise than the person squeezing the trigger. Hence the marked improvement in group size and accuracy as the marksman moves from field shooting positions to a benchrest situation.
Most hunters should concentrate on the 90% of human error in shot placement before needing to worry about whether their rifle is capable of grouping another 10mm tighter on a benchrest range.
An example is the common site of a hunter being able to keyhole shots on the range where all aspects can be controlled and only being capable of 2"groups in the field. On a 4" kill zone its all academic.

mark

 

[Claret_Dabbler]

Quite normal, I have had several rifles change POI with a bipod fitted.

Seems to interfer with the bedding. POI has always been high for me, as much as 4" at 100yards.

Hate the bloody things, but they can be useful.

I have yet to try one on my 260 which is devcon bedded into a really rigid stock. Must experiment soon.

 

[MarkH]

Practical hunting accuracywill

Took my 202 Sauer for a walk in the woods this morning to recheck zero for this evening.
Take off the Zeiss QD scope and check screw mounts, replace scope and clean push a couple of patches through.

The idea is to be consistent in all aspects of rifle craft, even the best rifles fall foul to poor maintenance.
I feel its important to know you first shot (cold clean barrel) intimately as this is the one that counts. Benchrest shooters have fouling shots, hunters dont.
By repeatedly stripping, cleaning reassembling the rifle you will build a zone of confidence in where it will shoot and what size group it is capable of. We don't really group shots in hunting like on the range so let the barrel cool for 2 minutes between shots. If your second shot is always 1"to the left learn the pattern you rifle makes on successive shots.

This morning I did 3 shot check as I know the groups are OK

Cold clean barrel 3cm high @ 100m - one shot
Go back 230m ( max distance across field) add 6 clicks up - shot 5cm high
Go back to 100 return scope to zero,- second shot 1cm from first.

To avoid tube lag in the scope if you need to go up 3 clicks go up 6 and then back three, this reduces the need to have a second shot to settle the scope or tapping the tube.

The idea is to develop confidence in the rifle. If all your shots in the field are between 25-250m fall into a 4" circle all is fine in the world.

Mark

 

[Brithunter]

Quite normal, I have had several rifles change POI with a bipod fitted.

Seems to interfer with the bedding. POI has always been high for me, as much as 4" at 100yards.

Hate the bloody things, but they can be useful.

I have yet to try one on my 260 which is devcon bedded into a really rigid stock. Must experiment soon.

Hmm Interesting as the shot was about 3 1/2" high with the rifle just rested on the Bi-Pod, holding it tighter dropped the next shots lower. This 25-06 is not free floated so methinks I need to try it on the 6.5x55 as that does have a floated barrel and see if it makes a difference Of course the 6.5mm is not threaded for the moderator, I might have to look into that.


Now MarkH,

I am running a little experiment with the 25-06 and have not cleaned the barrel since I switched to handloads to find out how the grouping holds up. So far it has bee 156 rounds since a clean and grouping still seems fine.

 

[DL]

I think people should do the best they can, and not stop themselves from trying to achieve more. I shot this 0.25 & then had some work done on my rifle, you can always do better.

 

[flytie]

My rifle shoots just the same off the bi-pod as it does off sticks, no noticeable change.

Brithunter, When i did my shooting test of the DSC I used a borrowed Tikka 595 with an all weather stock. The guy mentoring me told me to look at my set up when laid prone, using the bi-pod, and to see if i could spot what I was doing wrong. Allthough it was a Harris 9-13 swivel pod I was twisting the rifle back against the bi-pod so the stock was touching the barrel.

He could not float a piece of paper between the barrel and the stock. When he got me re-aligned he could push a piece of paper between the barrel and the stock. My bad technique, but also a very flimsy stock. My finnlight is very stiff and POI does not seem to change.

I hope you sort it out.

Atb, ft

 

[Brithunter]

well he would be disappointed with mine as a bit of paper has no chance as it has the normal P-H pressure point bedding. No gaps at all As I said I will try the Bi-Pod on the 6.5x55 (a sporterised Swedish Mauser) but will have to get some Q/D studs for it first as it stll has traditional sling loops and as yet it's not threaded at the muzzle.

Of course a lot would look down upon my sporterised military Swedish Mauser:-

it is a little heavy at 9lbs with scope but it's accounted for a fair share of Deer over the years and a few foxes too when required. The barrel is 22" long and still stepped in profile. Norman Clark replaced the down turned std bot handle with the one seen in the photo and the scope is a Meopta 7x50A in Hilver mounts trigger is the std one worked over and with the blade bent so it sits further back in the guard.

I think it's the only sporter/stalking rifle I have that has a floated barrel all the others are the traditional pressure point bedded in the forestock.

I don't have any with drastic plastic and as I said Bi-Pod shooting is actually pretty new to me so yes I have to work out the best technique to use it as yet. It may be that a Bi-Pod works best with a floated barrel? if so then it will have to be used with this rifle only as I am not about to start buthernig good wood to have unsightly gaps I have managed this far without it and the gaps so I imagine I can contnue to do so should that be the way forward.

Likewise until now I have always used a single stick when stalking except on one occasion when waiting for a Roe Buck to feed out from the wood edge in Hampshire when I used Cliffs tripod of garden canes (The B&Q green covered alloy ones ) however I am going to try using a pair of sticks once I get a pair made up that is. I have not done any of the DSC stuff but have shot the Stalkers Test at the British Sporting Rifle Club at Bisley quite a few times as I used to be a member of the BSRC Bisley is too far a jaunt just to shoot targets now.

 

[MarkH]

I use a bipod a little but prefer some intermediate sticks that are higher to get over the top of the heather/grass. Alows me to take sitting shots.

They are excellent check the link

http://varmintal.com/abifu.htm

Mark

 

[flytie]

[quote="Brithunter
Of course a lot would look down upon my sporterised military Swedish Mauser:-

it is a little heavy at 9lbs with scope but it's accounted for a fair share of Deer over the years and a few foxes too when required. The barrel is 22" long and still stepped in profile. Norman Clark replaced the down turned std bot handle with the one seen in the photo and the scope is a Meopta 7x50A in Hilver mounts trigger is the std one worked over and with the blade bent so it sits further back in the guard.

I don't have any with drastic plastic and as I said Bi-Pod shooting is actually pretty new to me so yes I have to work out the best technique to use it as yet. It may be that a Bi-Pod works best with a floated barrel? if so then it will have to be used with this rifle only as I am not about to start buthernig good wood to have unsightly gaps I have managed this far without it and the gaps so I imagine I can contnue to do so should that be the way forward.
quote]

It looks fine to me! I like traditional rifles I do not like plastic stocks and one day hope to change mine for something with nice wood.

ft

 

[Brithunter]

Thanks flytie as it's most likely to get the muzzle threaded and I have already taken the rear sight leaf off to clear the 50mm scope objective I might as well remove the sight base too. I only wish we could still get the Speer 120 grain flat based bullets as combined with H4350 it did rather like them. So far the Hornady 129's have not shot as well.

Later this year I do hope to save up enough to acquire another meopta scope as I do like this one . Oh according to the inspectors initials on the action it was made at Gustav bewteen 1903-1905. I found the rifle on the rack at F.A. Anderson in East Grinstead Sussex and did a bit of haggling and it cost me £180 with the scope mounts fitted the barrel was new.

 

[flytie]

Oh according to the inspectors initials on the action it was made at Gustav bewteen 1903-1905. I found the rifle on the rack at F.A. Anderson in East Grinstead Sussex and did a bit of haggling and it cost me £180 with the scope mounts fitted the barrel was new.

Nice one Brithunter

I think buying a nice action and then upgrading/changing bits on it as you can is a very sensible option. Or even better, buying a bargain like you did.

ft

 

[Brithunter]

I don't know who did the conversion but it's a commercial one and they fitted a new Swedish surplus barrel in doing so as the font on the numbers is different to the reciever. The stock was covered in a dark preservative which took some shifting before an oiled finish could be applied. I believe Andersons got it in a trade deal as this was the only one they got. The reciever was not drilled and Tapped so Jeremy the Gunsmith there at the time drilled and tapped it and fitted the bases.

Sometimes you can find the commercial Husqvarnas reasonably priced like this Model 46 of 1935 vintage:-

It has a slightly later scope on it being an American Bushnell Scopechief 3x scope. This one was priced at just under £200.

 

[Muir]

The Husky rifles are all over the place here in the US. Inexpensive and good quality. Usually the guns are 8x57 and 9x57. ~Muir

 

[harrygrey382]

Gotta say Brithunter you really do have some nice rifles. IS that 46 a 96 or 98 (maybe FN) action? You don't have a Sako Hi-Power do you by any chance? That's in my number one slot if I ever saw one. And had space on my ticket...

 

[Brithunter]

Gotta say Brithunter you really do have some nice rifles. IS that 46 a 96 or 98 (maybe FN) action? You don't have a Sako Hi-Power do you by any chance? That's in my number one slot if I ever saw one. And had space on my ticket...

Ahhhh harry I have a lot of photos of classic rifles unfortuneately not all of them are mine . The Husqvarna is a Model 46 and as I say according the the serial number of 1935 vintage and this one is mine. It's the one Muir and I were discussing Paper Patched bullets for as it's a 9.3x57mm.

I had it drilled and tapped for the scope mounts as I could not find a load to shoot to the irons at the time later I modified the bolt handle to clear the eyebell of the scope:-

Sadly at the moment it's on the not to be shot list the plods seem to think that saying I can only shoot certain rifles makes it safer for the public

Sorry I don't have any Sakos . My own "Holy Grail" if you like is an immaculate Ross M10 or 1910 in .280 Ross unless of course I could find and afford a model 1907 Scotch Stalker in .280 Ross that is .

 

[Muir]

Gee.... I have a minty 1910 Ross .303. Maybe I should rebarrel it? ~Muir

 

[Brithunter]

Gee.... I have a minty 1910 Ross .303. Maybe I should rebarrel it? ~Muir

Military or commercial?

I know a dealer that has a .303 sporter model 1905 I believe but although it looks quite nice it was not what I wanted and the price I thought was a bit steep. This was about 7 years ago now. If I make it to the Bisley arms fair in Feb or March i'll wager he still has it on his stand and I'll also wager he has the price up over £500 by now as every time I see it it's gone up. I pointed out it was overpriced and he just said he heard of one selling for that price so it's got to be worth it.

Of course he still had not sold it last time I was down there The one I am looking for is like this:-

No not mine as I was Gazumped on it I thought we had a deal then it seemed that we didn't. I missed another by 10 minutes that one was cased by Alexandra Henry Oh well one day ...................... one day.

 

[Nicholas Fahey]

fantastic, I want one!