Price of stalking

[Mountain Bug]

My first trip to Scotland was the first time I had ever paid for hunting and It took a little pride swallowing. Looking back though, I don't remember the price and that first experience changed my life and those wonderful memories will be with me forever. Seems a bargain now at any price.

P.S. Thank you @sikamalc


Scott

 

[Rutland lad]

Scotland doesn’t have a deer problem.

A few localities did have a deer problem, but several tens of millions of tax payer money has illuminated that problem.

It has completely deprived many neighbouring areas of land of all their deer, and these used to support viable stalking estates.

Such estates would employ a head stalker, a couple or three ghillies, a housekeeper and one or two others, especially when guests are staying.

Such estates made their money from hosting stalking parties and also from the owners own wealth.

Many of these estates have lost all their deer, all the stalkers made redundant and a little income is now made from Air BnB. Communities have lost key members - particularly keenly felt up in places like the Cairngorms where wild fires now burn out of control. In the past stalkers / gamekeepers managed the vegetation levels. If there was ever a fire, or need for mountain rescue, these guys were the first responders, and had the skills, fitness and kit to do the job properly.

Nowadays they are no longer on the ground or part of the community.

Contractors brought in to do deer control are never going to do any of the other jobs on the land.

Meanwhile the politicians and Nature Scot just scratch their heads.

You make some very pertinent points there, which to be absolutely honest, I had not fully considered in my outrage at the price.

I can relate fully to your pov as I sit in the heart of the UK’s fox hunting country, looking around at all the people I know involved in horse related activities which are in peril if trail hunting is banned.

It’s a sad state of affairs but I don’t see an easy answer anywhere - if the estates charge too much then they might not get the take up they want, and the deer population will continue to grow. If they charge too little, the deer population may be controlled more, but the profit margin may not be there at all, bring hardship in a different way.

I don’t profess to have all (or any) of the answers that would be palatable to all, but my original point of view was and is still that this sort of charge will only be available to a few, when the many would jump at the chance of a cheaper trip and may be able to do more to control the population.

And finally - still, the point of the advertised trip is stags, when we all know that in order to control the population we should be shooting hinds.

I thank you all for your thoughts, I am honest enough to say some of them struck a chord with me and made me look at it in a different light.

 

[reiver]

Just for a vue to cost of running an estate. One near me was sold for 17 million last year with annual running cost of nearly 8 million . The sellers who had inherited it I bet they were glad when someone bought it it off them after being for sale for 3-4 yrs.

 

[Jagdmatch]

I think its all relative to expectation and result. I shoot with the OP and our Scotland trips sits at just under £1000. I went to South Africa this year and it was just under £3000 including flights at discount. £3000 is less than monthly salary but whenI look at it as a choice I would rather do 7 days in SA than Scotland. On the other hand I am out at least 5 days a week trying to shoot fallow and the return on this covers fuel and time but very little profit on venison sales. The experience is worth paying for if tgsts your thing. Personally I would rather try the Mouflon experience rather than Red Stags but thats a personal choice!

 

[Grannysmith]

Too expensive stay home
Simples

 

[Rutland lad]

I think its all relative to expectation and result. I shoot with the OP and our Scotland trips sits at just under £1000. I went to South Africa this year and it was just under £3000 including flights at discount. £3000 is less than monthly salary but whenI look at it as a choice I would rather do 7 days in SA than Scotland. On the other hand I am out at least 5 days a week trying to shoot fallow and the return on this covers fuel and time but very little profit on venison sales. The experience is worth paying for if tgsts your thing. Personally I would rather try the Mouflon experience rather than Red Stags but thats a personal choice!

I still fancy mouflon or gams. Would love to try that.

 

[Heym SR20]

I still fancy mouflon or gams. Would love to try that.

I went to shoot a gams in Austria in 2019. I got mates rates on it, but still cost me about £4,000 after flights, car hire, a couple of nights in hotels and then hunting fees. It was a week long trip. If I had wanted a decent trophy the fees would have been a lot higher. Quite a lot of the fee was government licence fees.

Coming back to Scotland, I know a few Estate owners, albeit many have now passed over to happier hunting grounds. One, whom I knew very well reckoned the estate was £2m a year hole in the heather. It was run as a tax right off, ie all his other business interests funded it, and it was on the balance sheet of one of the major businesses. It was run on a commercial basis, with the lodge costing £20,000 plus a week, although it could take 10 to 12 guests in a very high level of comfort. But it was his pride and joy. Eventually he sold it, but kept a fortnight for himself- I remember him saying £20,000 a year was a lot cheaper than £2m a year.

It is a beautiful estate, lots of natural woodland - much allowed to regenerate over the last 50 years. You can still take the lodge, the stalking and the fishing, but it is pretty much all booked for many years ahead. The same families have booked the same weeks for years.

 

[Heym SR20]

Going back to the costs of doing anything in the highlands and islands of Scotland, any building works, materials, fuel or even just basic provisions you need to factor in a round trip of 50 to 100 miles. Might be a bit more, sometimes a bit less. You need to call out tradesmen - they will probably need to be accommodated for whilst on the job, and you will be paying the costs of their travel, and time travelling. It might not necessarily be itemised on their invoice, but you will certainly be charged for it.

You need fuel oil or diesel? Again you will be charged for the transport - a delivery will tie up a truck for a whole day.

Ordering on Amazon- you might note Highlands and Islands not typically included.

If getting stuff to an island or remote peninsula using boats, then costs very quickly mount up even further. Boats burn a lot of fuel.

So that £1.60 per litre of fuel for argo, is probably much more like £4 or £5 a litre by the time you have factored in all the costs of getting it to the argo.

Still it’s probably cheaper than trying to running a hunting camp in the middle of the African bush. In Zimbabwe a new Toyota Highlux pickup in very plain African spec will cost you well over US $100,000 by the time its in country and you have paid all the duties.

 

[Rutland lad]

I went to shoot a gams in Austria in 2019. I got mates rates on it, but still cost me about £4,000 after flights, car hire, a couple of nights in hotels and then hunting fees. It was a week long trip. If I had wanted a decent trophy the fees would have been a lot higher. Quite a lot of the fee was government licence fees.

Coming back to Scotland, I know a few Estate owners, albeit many have now passed over to happier hunting grounds. One, whom I knew very well reckoned the estate was £2m a year hole in the heather. It was run as a tax right off, ie all his other business interests funded it, and it was on the balance sheet of one of the major businesses. It was run on a commercial basis, with the lodge costing £20,000 plus a week, although it could take 10 to 12 guests in a very high level of comfort. But it was his pride and joy. Eventually he sold it, but kept a fortnight for himself- I remember him saying £20,000 a year was a lot cheaper than £2m a year.

It is a beautiful estate, lots of natural woodland - much allowed to regenerate over the last 50 years. You can still take the lodge, the stalking and the fishing, but it is pretty much all booked for many years ahead. The same families have booked the same weeks for years.

And yet again, to me that’s a huge amount of money.
Retired from work, but still too young to get state pension, that amount of money equals a couple of holidays for wife and I.
Looks like Scotland is as far as I’ll get in the foreseeable - unless my numbers come up of course.

 

[Heym SR20]

And yet again, to me that’s a huge amount of money.
Retired from work, but still too young to get state pension, that amount of money equals a couple of holidays for wife and I.
Looks like Scotland is as far as I’ll get in the foreseeable - unless my numbers come up of course.

Agreed, and for me it was a big chunk of cash - sort of once in a lifetime type opportunity.

 

[rem284]

Like anything, if someone is daft enough to pay it, someone will be daft enough to take it

 

[Tikka 270]

Whilst I understand your point of view, I cannot balance the ‘Scotland has a deer problem’ with that amount of money

Let's be clear, the deer problem in Scotland is not in the highlands and islands, it's central and borders

 

[Ratel]

I still fancy mouflon or gams. Would love to try that.

Harder than retreiving fallow my friend.

 

[Malxwal]

I think its all relative to expectation and result. I shoot with the OP and our Scotland trips sits at just under £1000. I went to South Africa this year and it was just under £3000 including flights at discount. £3000 is less than monthly salary but whenI look at it as a choice I would rather do 7 days in SA than Scotland. On the other hand I am out at least 5 days a week trying to shoot fallow and the return on this covers fuel and time but very little profit on venison sales. The experience is worth paying for if tgsts your thing. Personally I would rather try the Mouflon experience rather than Red Stags but thats a personal choice!

Is shooting deer your hobby ? If so, why do you expect costs to be covered ?

 

[HonestJohn]

Let's be clear, the deer problem in Scotland is not in the highlands and islands, it's central and borders

There’s no deer problem in the borders, unless it’s ‘lack’ of deer

 

[Jagdmatch]

Is shooting deer your hobby ? If so, why do you expect costs to be covered ?

No,
Small business now although started as a hobby 30 years ago. I fully understand market costs but the experience tells me that its very easy to price yourself out of the market if you overprice your product. Clearly if you have people who want to pay that price good luck to them. It is however easy to see the people who regard deer stalking as a cash opportunity rather than taking in the management issues.

 

[WTMR]

Scotlands problem is because of this type of stalking. In itself, people will pay it and the estate will keep thousands of deer to supply it. When folk can’t quite afford £7k for a weekend, all of a sudden spending £2k on a syndicate place seems like good value.
You can pay a farmer £5k per year and have the same chance of an excellent stag but I can come every weekend if I want to? I’ll do that then.

This trickles down into the forestry leases and all of the people making money from those until the local guy who could actually do a job is priced out of it from ‘stalkers’ from the south west of England.Then they come for only one weekend a year and nobody ever shoots a deer. It’s been going on for decades.

If there were a vote tomorrow to ban paid stalking in Scotland, I’d be the first to cast in favour.

I feel like this comment is a little off the mark and detracts from what is actually being discussed here.

Banning paid stalking would cut off the main access point for normal people hoping to shoot their first deer. Which in turn leads to them spending all their hard earned money on kit and more stalking experiences - this is helpful for the industry and economy, and their wellbeing.

Most people do not know landowners or farmers well know from the get-go to negotiate free stalking and syndicate places are few and far between. Hence purchasing a guided day is the best option.

We have a habit in Scotland of moaning about those with some cash south of the border coming up and causing problems for us. Usually this relates to things like the cost of holiday accommodation on the west coast. However all too often we see it with fieldsports - particularly very expensive high end activities such as top end stag stalking or driven grouse.

This is pointless - it’s using very specific extreme examples of luxury activities to give an illusion these are the only options to us and that we are being priced out of our hobbies because in certain locations it’s very expensive.

There are plenty of cheaper more accessible stalking options - roe deer (especially does) cost a lot less than a weekend away at a concert, cheaper stag stalking isn’t too bad either. Wildfowling is cheap as chips (free in Fife and Lothian) and walked up shooting can be had in Scotland for £150-300 per person per day…not bad!

Just because I can’t afford a Range Rover or a Porsche doesn’t mean they shouldn’t exist in Scotland. Similarly, I can’t afford a week on the Tay - but I can afford the odd day fishing here and there. If there is a market for high end recreational and leisure experiences in Scotland we should be embracing that and championing them. Our government continue to do a tremendous job killing off any other growth or industry in the country…perhaps this is one area we can all get behind that, see the positives and actually encourage some entrepreneurial spirit….

 

[Shabz]

Let's be clear, the deer problem in Scotland is not in the highlands and islands, it's central and borders

I must be imagining all of the biodiversity deserts that I visit in the Highlands and Islands?

 

[Camdig]

I must be imagining all of the biodiversity deserts that I visit in the Highlands and Islands?

Whats a biodiversity desert and where do I find them?

 

[dpaterson]

I’ve had this land in my inbox following a enquiry earlier in the year. In order to allow the Estate some protection, I’ve removed a couple of identifying words.
I’m just asking if the membership think this is value for money bearing in mind that currently in Scotland, the deer are apparently an issue, and I believe the Estate would get paid for each carcass by the Scots Government.
Your thoughts are welcome.





Good evening from the Isle of ……….

I am delighted to share that ……………… will be welcoming guests once again this season.

We are pleased to offer a 3-night, all-inclusive stay for two hunters, including two full days of guided stalking with four stags included, at the special rate of £6,995.

Availability for this exclusive offer is limited, and bookings will be allocated on a first-come, first-served basis.

If this opportunity is of interest, I would be delighted to provide further details or discuss available dates.

Kind Regards,

On the face of it, yes, it seems expensive. But hard to say catagorically without understand the offering.

Four stags, of what quality?
Two stalkers, is that 1-1 guiding, or 2-1?
Three nights for two people? Sharing a camp bed, a whole lodge, two suites in a smart hotel?
Full board - are you having a tin of beans or something gastronomically awsome?

I won't go on, but hopefully you see my point...