Rifles belonging to dead friend

[J@son]

A friend of mine died 18 months ago. His widow contacted me over the weekend to say she still hadn’t sorted out the weapons he held on his FAC - 2x 22RF target shooting rifles with iron sights; 1x antique 44-40 American martini action carbine and 1x antique short barrelled (hence FAC) 12g shotgun. (Plus ammo)

Sharp intake of breath on my part. I realise grief doesn’t have a time limit but Gloucestershire Firearms Dept probably does and 18 months seems quite a long time.

Anyway... I immediately emailed two two local RFDs to ask if they would accept the weapons and ammunition ASAP while she arranges for their sale/disposal. I also emailed the Glos Firearms team advising them of the situation and the steps being taken to to address it.

The situation is complicated by the fact that my dead friend’s FAC was issued by the Met - as he had a house in London as well as Gloucestershire. However, since his death his widow has been living in Gloucestershire. And this is where all the guns are.

Worth adding they are in a safe and all secure.

My friend also had four deactivated weapons - two revolvers, one antique hammer action shotgun and one martini action rifle. The revolvers she wishes to keep; the other two she wishes to dispose of. I have discovered that she needs to write to the Home Office to advise them of the transfer of ownership and given her the form she needs to fill in. I am hoping the RFD will accept the deactivated shotgun and rifle and dispose of them for her.

If anyone can offer any helpful advice, I would be grateful. I have not yet heard back from either Glos. Firearms or the two RFDs but I imagine both will be slow to respond due to the current situation with lockdown. Is there anything else I ought to be doing while I wait for a response to my emails?

Run a mile? I know... don’t say it. It isn’t a good situation and the last thing I want to do is put my own FAC at risk but I can’t walk away and leave my fiend’s wife in the lurch. And someone has to sort this out.

 

[enfieldspares]

Best easiest and quickest is probably Stroud Auctions. They are a major auction house and also hold two, three, sporting gun sales. I have used them and from that experience can recommend them. It will be a "one stop shop". They will take everything. Unless I know them personally I don't trust RFDs in these sort of situations.

Stroud Auctions Ltd. | Auction of guns, weapons, medals, militaria, taxidermy, sporting, vinyl records & musical instruments

bid.stroudauctions.co.uk

 

[Foxyboy43]

Hmmm. Had to deal with a similar sad sudden death a few years ago. Firearms were taken by me as an fac holder to local gundealer (probably wrongly but better that than left in an empty house) who stored them until a decision was taken on their respective fate. I think the lady may have inadvertently contravened what is supposed to happen but it would be difficult to imagine any action ensuing. Best get them to a registered dealer asap (be careful) and advise authorities accordingly. The de-acts may be a different matter but why not try to sell them on guntrader or whatever as they may have a value? SD chaps with greater knowledge could advise.
Good luck - you are doing the right thing by this lady.

 

[8x57]

Are we to assume that your friend's widow did not apply for a temporary permit?
Purely out of curiosity you mention a .44-40 martini action American rifle, do you have any more details as to what it is.

 

[Andyquadra]

When my brothers SGC ran out by a month, he was really panicking. I spoke to my feo to let him know what we were doing and was surprised by the response. Your friends situation is not unusual and he'd seen it before, that said, I wouldn't want to be in that situation.
I feel you have done the right thing, just keep on at the RFD's

 

[malmick]

@kimh may be able to offer some advice on this.

 

[Sampo]

the other two she wishes to dispose of.

Rather than getting the RFD to get rid of the deactivated SG and Rifle, do ask around if someone enjoys hanging them on the wall as it doesn't require a SG or FAC to hold (unless I got it wrong). If noone wants them, I am happy to have them and add it as part of my collection as I hate to see any rifles/ SGs destroyed. Could polish it and hang it on the wall. Do PM me if this is an option.

 

[kimh]

@kimh may be able to offer some advice on this.

malmick is right I can help and I'm in Cirencester, Office phone is 02034 75 38 45
if you don't know who I am I'm Kim Hubbard of ARTISAN RIFLES and I'm a Firearms Executor

 

[kimh]

Rather than getting the RFD to get rid of the deactivated SG and Rifle, do ask around if someone enjoys hanging them on the wall as it doesn't require a SG or FAC to hold (unless I got it wrong). If noone wants them, I am happy to have them and add it as part of my collection as I hate to see any rifles/ SGs destroyed. Could polish it and hang it on the wall. Do PM me if this is an option.

Notification of transfer or possession of deactivated firearms

 

[bfltd0]

Firearms should go either to a good auction house or a decent dealer.

The deacs are not as simple as they used to be. She can keep the revolvers as is, since she is not selling them but as you say, she needs to to inform the authorities and it sounds like that is in hand. On possession and transfer of deacs, this is the latest position:

010/2019: Firearms Regulations 2019 and the Firearms (Amendment) (No.2) Rules 2019

www.gov.uk

For the other two deacs, if they are done to the latest spec, they are fine to be sold as is. However, you now can't transfer any deac unless they are done to the latest deac spec. Silly I know, but if those two deacs are not to the current specs, they would have to go to someone who would charge for the extra deac work (plus getting a new deac cert from a proof house) before they can be put on sale.

Depends on the potential sale value, and it is worth taking advice from a dealer on this, but they may not be worth doing again - alternative is cutting them up or handing them to the police for disposal.

 

[J@son]

Thanks for the replies. Pictures of the American 44-40 rifle attached.

 

[Woodsmoke]

I would call the RFDs direct and ask them outright if they'll accept the items for storage. Chances are the emails have either been missed altogether, or just forgotten about. In any case, I wouldn't be flapping too much? In my experience the police are far more interested in knowing the firearms are safe and secure than in holding people to account, especially when someone is only trying to do the right thing

 

[8x57]

Thanks for the replies. Pictures of the American 44-40 rifle attached.

So an underlever and not a Martini action, I wondered if that would be the case.
It looks like a Winchester 1873 to me so may have some real collector interest. See if you can spot any markings that might indicate if it was a rifle originally issued to the RFC or Royal navy.

 

[J@son]

Yes! Well done Woodsmoke - thank you.

I believe it is a Winchester 1873 - this now makes complete sense based on what I have been told previously. I believe it was made in 1901. It was purchased in the USA.

 

[Swedish]

Certainly an 1873, looks like a saddle ring carbine which would suggest civilian ownership or army issue assuming its an original, it does look like quite old. If so it would be well worth getting a valuation. .44-40 was the chambering that the rifle was originally offered in.

 

[cjm1066]

Happened to me, told the Police, asked for a temporary permit and received that the next day - went to the house and collected the gun and took them home.

Permit was only 6 months but that was long enough to sort on the future plans.

Easy but sad process

 

[Mountain Bug]

My condolences to you for the loss of a friend. As suggested, there should be an independent valuation done on all the guns. As an example, 1873 model Winchesters can be worth anywhere between $1k and $3-400k depending on the serial number and condition. Not a bad little nest egg for your friend's widow.

Scott

 

[J@son]

Thanks to Kim at Artisan Rifles. Spoke to him midday on Tuesday. By 5pm he was at my friend’s house. All the weapons were collected and placed in secure storage that day. My friend’s widow can now take the time she needs to sort out what she’s keeping and what she is selling, and get all the necessary paperwork in order. Kim could not have been more helpful or professional. His costs were extremely reasonable and his advice was both kind and professional. Very impressive.

 

[malmick]

@Jason Page Thank you for the update, I am glad that this has worked out well and that Kim was able to be of service to you and your late friend's widow. I have very recently become one of Kim's clients and would agree with your appraisal of Kim and the service offered by his company.

 

[hughsurrey]

On a slightly lighter note, a friend of mine's father passed away, and the friend asked me to deal with his gun cabinet as neither the friend or her mother had a SGC. So I called the appropriate people to let them know what I intended and drove to the parent's house and was greeted by the Widow, who was the spitting image of the cartoon fairy godmother in the Walt Disney movies (little old lady, slightly plump, specs, boufant grey hair etc) and her rottwieller. Introductions were made and I went to the cabinet (my friend had given me the keys) expecting to pick up 4 shotguns, opened the cabinet and found 3 O/U shotguns and some shells in a bag which also contained the deceased's SGC, showing 3 O/U shotguns held.

Slightly confused, I asked the widow if there were 3 or 4 guns in the house, as I could only find 3 to which she replied 'oh, you mean Betsy?" and showed me into her bedroom and drew from under the bed a single barrel 12 bore, of inditerminate make with the stock bound with varnished string to stop the large crack which ran from one end to the other, from seperating. The name Betsy was scratched on the barrel, apparently the deceased had owned it since he was a boy and it had never been put on his ticket. Out of habit, I broke the shotgun open to find a shell in the tube and on further questioning the little old lady produced another handful out of the bedside table, apparently it had been kept that way all the time she could remember!!