runners

[Orion]

In Guy Wallace’s book Training a dog for woodland stalking, he advices to shoot deer low in the chest to get a low heart shot, this then gives a good chance of a runner, you can then help train your inexperienced dog on the trail.

Tahr, I'm appreciative of you bringing this point up as I was going to mention it in a very brief resume' of Dogs4Deer books I'm putting together.

I realise it's a whole different subject but I really do think this advice is borderline irresponsible - particularly if taken up by inexperienced or novice stalkers. The whole ethos of our humane treatment of an animal - even though we are seeking to kill it - should be to strive to make it's passing as quick and painless as possible, anything less demeans us as humans. How low is a 'low' heart shot, and how far is that from making a non-lethal but wounding shot through the brisket or taking a leg off?

IMO of course and others may well disagree, but I would advise caution and only attempt to make the best possible killing shot in each situation as it presents itself.

As an aside; what really hammered it home to me as to how resilient deer are to being put down, (other than the aforemention neckless hind!), was the drugs that I found that it took to immobilise/capture wild fallow does. At nearly twice the dose of LAI and Rompun that a red stag needed, it would be sufficient to kill 5-6 full grown men. And that was just enough to stop it after 3-4 minutes. If you didn't already realise it, these are extremely hard animals we are dealing with!

 

[sean]

I agree with orion that we should insure to try and kill our deer as quick and as humanely as possible.But i think that what gut wallace was trying to put over was a low chest shot will still prove fatal, but there is a higher chance of the deer running as apossed to a high shoulder shot.although the deer is running it is basicaly running dead on it's feet i.e still a fatal/humane shot.
Sean

 

[Thar]

Tahr, I'm appreciative of you bringing this point up as I was going to mention it in a very brief resume' of Dogs4Deer books I'm putting together.

I realise it's a whole different subject but I really do think this advice is borderline irresponsible - particularly if taken up by inexperienced or novice stalkers. The whole ethos of our humane treatment of an animal - even though we are seeking to kill it - should be to strive to make it's passing as quick and painless as possible, anything else demeans us as humans.

How low is a 'low' heart shot, and how far is that from making a non-lethal but wounding shot through the brisket or taking a leg off?

Hi Orion

You will not find me disagreeing with you on this, especially for an inexperienced stalker. Sean has summed it up I guess. For anybody reading this I would suggest it should go into the “do not try this a home kids”.

Personally I always go half way up the chest, I know it is not text book but a bit too high or too low you still have a dead deer.

ATB

Tahr

 

[david1976]

In the last 3 years, I have only had 1 runner (roe deer) which ran about 25 yards. All the deer I have shot in this time have been chest shot with 55g bullets from a .22/250 but the rest have dropped on the spot. Some have kicked for about 5 seconds but stayed down.

When I used to shoot red deer, I shot all my stags in the chest and hinds in the neck. This was with a .243 and .25/06 (not at the same time obviously ) cant remember the bullet weight. On this species using these calibres, I did get the odd runner again about 50 yards possibly 100 tops.

I agree that it may have something to do with the deer knowing if you are there or not. I think if they suspect nothing they will go down and accept it however if they know you are about they will make a dash for it.

david

 

[Orion]

I agree that it may have something to do with the deer knowing if you are there or not. I think if they suspect nothing they will go down and accept it however if they know you are about they will make a dash for it.

Maybe, maybe not! All I can add to the previous examples is to expect the unexpected and you won't be disappointed.

 

[MACKY]

I once shot a roe with my .222 the distance was about 150m side on hart & lung shot the deer did not react to the shot the lad that was with me sad i had missed.

I use a Tikka 595 .222 very accurat so i new i had hit it but no reaction at all from the deer he just walked away over a hill & out of site my friend still adament i had missed so we heded of with his dog for a look no blood at the strick point the dog picked up the sent & off we went found the roe buck about 300m away.

The bullet had went right threw the lungs missing the ribs on both sides.

Stalking on Monday at Dunkeld shot a Fallow using a friends .308 picked out the deer i wanted took the shot again no reaction but i new i had hit it again the lad that was with me was not to sure the deer went off across the hill for about 200m then stopped stagered about then fell over.

Two simalar reactions one from a small calaber one from a larger calaber
so you never now what will happen when you pull the trigger but you must be prepaird follow up all shots that are taken on live anamals be it a deer or a fox.

This is just a coupple of exampels that has happend to me over the years.
So it dose not mater the calaber of the rifle you are using but you must be sure of yourself & your abilite to put the shot where you want it to go.

John

 

[Hales Smut]

I must back up Sean in this item . No round kills 100 % on the spot .

If you have a runner , blood is a nice thing to have . It makes it easier for the dog or for your eye to follow .
An exit wound , in general , is larger and gives more blood to follow up .
Penetration is everything . I like a bullet/ calibre combination who can fully penetrate the game I shoot at from any angle or distance I want to shoot .

 

[sikadog]

Last summer one of our syndicate members shot a Sika stag at 75 paces, it did not know he was there, it was shot with a 6.5x55 129gr somewhere I have a picture of its heart hanging on a tree you can see daylight through a 1 inch hole in the centre of it. The stag ran 200mtrs someone forgot to tell it it was dead.

 

[flytie]

I saw two good examples of runners with well placed shots last year, one of mine and one from a friend.

Mine was on the golf course I shoot over, two prickets together and they new I was there, but I managed to get in to about 50 yards because there is good tree and hedge cover. On the report both prickets took off, running like mad. It made it a tad over 100yards before dropping dead, completely still. I had blown the top of the heart off.

The second was a real beauty. My mate Dave shot his stag and it never new we were there. He had crawled up some ridge and furrow on the top of a bank and was shooting down into a valley. He took the shot and the stag dropped. All the other deer ran towards us, then his stag got up and ran with the other deer. Right past us, then back down into the river valley behind our shooting position making for a sanctuary wood. Just at the botom of the field, not 20 yards from the wood, the stag dropped. We paced it out, conservatively, it was just over 300yards. It was shot with a 130gn softpoint from his .308. On gralloching it we found there was very little heart left. How do they do that? It was a beggar of an extraction because it was too wet to take a vehicle down to the carcass on such a steep slope. We sweated pulling him up that slope, oh how we sweated.

ft

 

[Dalua]

On gralloching it we found there was very little heart left. How do they do that?

It is remarkable, but I think they can do that because:
1. The shot hasn't damaged their running-gear
2. There's enough oxygen in the brain/spine to keep control of the running-gear for a while
3. There's enough oxygen in the muscles generally to give a damn' good last dash.

When the oxygen allowing 2 or 3 is gone, the beast falls over.

 

[MarkH]

Blowing big hole and meat damage - too soft, too fast.

Mark

 

[Orion]

On gralloching it we found there was very little heart left. How do they do that?

It is remarkable, but I think they can do that because:
1. The shot hasn't damaged their running-gear
2. There's enough oxygen in the brain/spine to keep control of the running-gear for a while
3. There's enough oxygen in the muscles generally to give a damn' good last dash.

When the oxygen allowing 2 or 3 is gone, the beast falls over.

Don't forget:

4. Adrenaline - causes the blood vessels to constrict and keep pressure high in the muscle and brain even after the heart is gone.

Incidentley. A 200kg deer has a blood volume of 12 litres. It can lose up to 4.8 ltr without loss of life, (provided major organs are not affected). Furthermore, it must lose at least 5.7 ltr before it succumbs - very nearly 50% of the total volume!!

From Working with dogs for deer; Niels Sondergaard.

 

[MarkH]

Hi

The reason a beast can run for 10seconds at full pelt has nothing to do with pumping blood. Its ATP breakdown in he muscles during anaerobic respiration. This is why a sprinter does not need to breath to run 100m. They need to breath to recover.
As long as the nervous system is intact to co-ordinate the muscles they can run minus heart and lungs for 10s or so. Hence shaking and quivering on a downed animal with a head/spine shot, the muscles are working but not in a coordinated fashion.

Mark

 

[longlowdog]

I think it is wrong to categorically damn a bullet for it performance based on one caliber. A given bullet will perform vastly differently at different velocities. Take 6mm as an example, if you put a bullet in a small 6mmppc case you may get inadequate expansion at long range due to insufficient energy to upset it. Drive the same bullet out of a 6mm-06 and it may disintegrate at short range due to too much energy not giving the bullet an opportunity to expand in a controled fashion. There is a happy medium for both cases. Manufacturers will supply velocity figures at which the bullet will generally perform in the way it was designed when impacting the type of medium it was designed for.
Bullets are extremely fragile things despite how they feel in the hand. Target shooters pushing the envelope of bullets have been known to have bullets explode in mid air before even reaching a target. Manufactures spend milions on R+D, it is worthwhile talking to/emailing them if things go wrong especially if you can quote batch numbers as they can be surprising helpfull.

 

[flytie]

Just a quick thought on this one; Has anyone here ever had a deer run the right way, the way that made extraction easier?

I have had sea trout run up and beach themselves, shot birds land at my feet after circling round (on more than one occassion), hooked rainbow trout jump into my boat and on one memorable day fishing on the spey I had a salmon jump into the net I was getting ready to land the fish with.
But as yet, all the deer I have seen run after being shot have definately made life more difficult rather than easier.

Or is it just me

ft

 

[mickthebrick]

My dads mate shot a Sika stag that ran off into the darkness and with a lot of (^&%* and F^&* they went back to the car to get the dog and the Stag had run around in a big circle and dropped dead on the road in front of the car

 

[flytie]

It's just me then

In the immortal words of Muddy Waters, "if wasn't for bad luck I wouldn't have no luck at all"!

ft