Scope conundrum - advice sought (long post)

[Lancaster]

Before you buy another scope, put the old one on and go and shoot a few groups just to check that there isn't an issue with the rifle.
Check that the mounts are the right size, I can't remember which CZ models have a 3/8" dovetail and which have an 11mm one so have a check.
At 25m I would expect a CZ without any issues to put all the bullets through pretty much the same hole.
As an alternative scope keep any eye out for a 2nd hand Philippines made Simmons, the WTC 2.5-10 x 40 is a handy little scope for a .22 and easy re-parallaxed to suit the range that you shoot at.

 

[markj1]

Found it... the Wulf Fireball 2-7x32 weighs 396g. That's very light for an adjustable-zoom scope. Looks like we might have a winner here....

 

[markj1]

Before you buy another scope, put the old one on and go and shoot a few groups just to check that there isn't an issue with the rifle.
Check that the mounts are the right size, I can't remember which CZ models have a 3/8" dovetail and which have an 11mm one so have a check.
At 25m I would expect a CZ without any issues to put all the bullets through pretty much the same hole.
As an alternative scope keep any eye out for a 2nd hand Philippines made Simmons, the WTC 2.5-10 x 40 is a handy little scope for a .22 and easy re-parallaxed to suit the range that you shoot at.

Yup, it's 11mm. I'll probably also get lower mounts to go with the new smaller scope. The current scope rides quite high (not really required because the CZ 457 bolt doesn't interfere with the scope), which again makes me think that a bigger and better scope was originally fitted to rifle:

 

[markj1]

Update:

Based on Edinburgh Rifles' recommendation I went ahead and ordered a Wulf Fireball 2-7x32 AO SFP from Uttings, and I am impressed with both the scope and with the seller.

It arrived next-day, and my initial reaction is that I can't believe that it costs under £50. It looks very well built, much nicer than the cheap scope that came with my rifle.

I am obviously not expecting the moon from what is a very basic scope - but for my needs, target shooting at 25m and 50m, it seems like the right tool for the job.

More importantly, the image is clear and in focus even with the maximum magnification (OK, 7x isn't much) at very close range.

I also bought Sportsmatch UK low rings, I believe they are an entry-level but decent brand.

The only thing remaining is to put it on the rifle and see how it shoots....

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

I would buy the crossfire or the Hawke. I've had a Hawke Vantage and the scope is great. I now have a crossfire 4-12*50 and its the muts nuts on my 22RF. Can't recommend more

Ammo would be a massive factor too - get yourself some good quality subsonics if shooting targets at those distances. Things like RWS, Norma, SK or Eley in no particular order

 

[nic531]

For small bore target you need a lot of X’s to be competitive, 3-9 won’t hack it, so maybe try to find something second hand?
If you’re just practising your shooting in a non competitive way, any of the scopes you list will be fine.
You might try some different ammunition brands too, some .22’s can be picky about what they will group with. A change of ammo may improve your groups.

it all depends on what sort of target shooting you are doing. if Light Sporting Rifle, then too much magnification is not good as it shows up too much wobble ... one of the comps I do is against the clock and the scope I use is a max 4 x mag and I do ok with that.... its only if you are going down the bench rest route do you need silly amounts of mag (and OCD a hatred of shooting or touching a rifle etc etc etc)

 

[markj1]

I would buy the crossfire or the Hawke. I've had a Hawke Vantage and the scope is great. I now have a crossfire 4-12*50 and its the muts nuts on my 22RF. Can't recommend more

Ammo would be a massive factor too - get yourself some good quality subsonics if shooting targets at those distances. Things like RWS, Norma, SK or Eley in no particular order

Vortex and Hawke were on my initial list. Edinburgh Rifles, who is a trade member, didn't seem impressed with the Hawke. The Vortex was a possibility, but for the price, I'd have checked the ammo before replacing the scope.

Edinburgh Rifles mentioned the Wulf as decent entry level, and I read online that the Wulf Fireball is very similar to the Vortex Crossfire albeit at a much lower price.

Given that the Wulf costs under £50.... for the price, I thought I'd just go ahead and replace the scope that came with the rifle and which I did not like for several reasons.

 

[markj1]

it all depends on what sort of target shooting you are doing. if Light Sporting Rifle, then too much magnification is not good as it shows up too much wobble ... one of the comps I do is against the clock and the scope I use is a max 4 x mag and I do ok with that.... its only if you are going down the bench rest route do you need silly amounts of mag (and OCD a hatred of shooting or touching a rifle etc etc etc)

Agreed. I previously used a 4x20 fixed magnification scope, and it was just about right for my needs. The new rifle came with a (super-cheapo) 3-9x40, which I thought was too much. I opted for the Wulf 2-7x32 because it provides some flexibility without going OTT on the magnification.

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Vortex and Hawke were on my initial list. Edinburgh Rifles, who is a trade member, didn't seem impressed with the Hawke. The Vortex was a possibility, but for the price, I'd have checked the ammo before replacing the scope.

Edinburgh Rifles mentioned the Wulf as decent entry level, and I read online that the Wulf Fireball is very similar to the Vortex Crossfire albeit at a much lower price.

Given that the Wulf costs under £50.... for the price, I thought I'd just go ahead and replace the scope that came with the rifle and which I did not like for several reasons.

Yeah whatever is in your budget. a 22LR doesn't need a super expensive scope. Glass quality between the vortex crossfire and the Hawke Vantage was night and day though and the vortex warranty is phenomenal. Broke my binos last year getting out of the car and had a new set within a week no questions asked.

 

[markj1]

Update:

Finally got around to fitting the new scope and trying it at the range.

The first 3 shots whent inti the same hole (at 25m, with bipod). So obviously the new scope fixed the problem.

I didn't manage to quite replicate the 3-bullets-in-the-same-hole again, so I guess it was partially due to chance, but I did get some very tight groupings, and so all is well.

I was shooting CCI Mini-Mags and I prepared a box of slower CCI Standard as well, but I didn't actually bother with testing different ammunition because the rifle performed well as soon as the new Wulf scope was fitted.

Thanks everyone for your help and advice.

 

[Len the dog]

Update:

Finally got around to fitting the new scope and trying it at the range.

The first 3 shots whent inti the same hole (at 25m, with bipod). So obviously the new scope fixed the problem.

I didn't manage to quite replicate the 3-bullets-in-the-same-hole again, so I guess it was partially due to chance, but I did get some very tight groupings, and so all is well.

I was shooting CCI Mini-Mags and I prepared a box of slower CCI Standard as well, but I didn't actually bother with testing different ammunition because the rifle performed well as soon as the new Wulf scope was fitted.

Thanks everyone for your help and advice.

When I was given a CZ 452 I tried lots of different ammo, CCI weren’t very good and the RWS were even worse. Eley subs proved the best vermin round but the Eley target rounds had a slight edge over the sub HPs. I tried a box of Eley Tenex out of curiosity but the ever so slight improvement wasn’t worth the premium price.
Winchester were the worst by far.

 

[markj1]

Further update:

The CZ 457 shoots very well with the CCI Mini-Mag rounds (1235 FPS).

I have finally gotten around to try the CCI Standard (1070 FPS), and the grouping wasn't as tight.

Just to be sure, I also bought some German Norma Tac-22 (1083 FPS), and they just as good as the CCI Mini-Mag.

So it seems that the bullet speed wasn never the issue here.

Overall, I prefer the Mini-Mag, because the heads are copper-washed so (hopefully) they will not cause lead fouling, and also the Norma came heavily lubricated which leaves a greasy on the fingers after loading the magazine, not great for target shooting.... But in terms of performance, they are both excellent (or, rather, I should say that if there's anything between them, then my own shooting skills do not go far enough to notice it... ). I'll post some target photos later.

The bottom line is that rifle shoots absolutely fine, the problem was clearly with the cheap scope that came with it, and was resolved with the installation of the Wulf 3-7x32 scope with the adjustable objective. I found that at 25m, x6 magnification works best.

Also, I went for the short (16") and light barrel version, to minimise weight, and I had concerns about accuracy, but I did not have any issues: the .22LR does not need a longer barrel, and accuracy remain good even after putting 200 rounds through the rifle in less than two hours.

So, all's good... thanks again to those helped with advice and choosing the scope.

 

[markj1]

This is 25m, shooting with a bi-pod (but not from an actual bench), on a windy day, 3 sets of 5 rounds each:

At 12 o'clock: CCI Mini-Mag

At 3 o'clock: Norma Tac-22

At 6 o'clock: CCI Standard

At first glance, the Norma grouping seems tighter, but further shooting showed the the Mini-Mag and Norma produced similar results.

 

[John Gryphon]

The Zastava sadly failed

Have you details of the failure please. I have never heard of a .22 LR failing ever thus very interested.

 

[markj1]

Have you details of the failure please. I have never heard of a .22 LR failing ever thus very interested.

It first occurred a couple of years ago. There was a muffled bang and tiny bits of debris came flying out of the breech. On closer inspection, the breech didn't properly lock the cartridge in place, it blew back, the casing was blackened with sooth, and the bullet was stuck in the barrel.

I took the rifle to the gunsmith shop, and they fixed it. They said that there was a problem with the extractor pin and they reassembled it and it's fine now.

A year later, the same happened again. This time, there was no bullet stuck in the barrel, but the shop said that the extractor pin was now broken, and they are unable to get the parts.

Apparently Zastava only sell the entire breech, but attempts to get one failed so far (I even tried to contact Zastava in the US).

I then 'sold' the rifle to a friend (in fact it's the same chap from whom I bought the rifle 5 years earlier), who said he'll try and fabricate an extractor pin, but he hasn't done so yet.

At any rate I now have the CZ 457 so won't be looking to get the Zastava back anyway. But it was a great rifle while I had it, really liked it. RIP Zastava CZ99 Precision....

 

[John Gryphon]

It first occurred a couple of years ago. There was a muffled bang and tiny bits of debris came flying out of the breech. On closer inspection, the breech didn't properly lock the cartridge in place, it blew back, the casing was blackened with sooth, and the bullet was stuck in the barrel.

I took the rifle to the gunsmith shop, and they fixed it. They said that there was a problem with the extractor pin and they reassembled it and it's fine now.

A year later, the same happened again. This time, there was no bullet stuck in the barrel, but the shop said that the extractor pin was now broken, and they are unable to get the parts.

Apparently Zastava only sell the entire breech, but attempt to get one failed so far (I even tried to contact Zastava in the US).

I then 'sold' the rifle to a friend (in fact it's the same chap from whom I bought the rifle 5 years earlier), who said he'll try and fabricate an extraction pin, but he hasn't done so yet.

At any rate I now have the CZ 457 so won't be looking to get the Zastava back anyway. But it was a great rifle while I had it, really liked it. RIP Zastava CZ99 Precision....

Thank you. It seems that it didn't go through quality control at the factory. Dangerous thing,I hope that their centerfires are more rigorously tested.

 

[markj1]

Thank you. It seems that it didn't go through quality control at the factory. Dangerous thing,I hope that their centerfires are more rigorously tested.

This may well be the case, but I don't know the full history of this particular rifle and I have to give Zastava the benefit of the doubt, it's not impossible that one of the first owners modified it in some way, who knows. I fired several thousand rounds through it without issue, apart for these two incidents.

Just found a favourable review from twenty years ago:

https://www.ssaa.org.au/stories/rifles-zastava-cz99-precision-22-bolt-action.html

 

[markj1]

Old thread revive....

Since buying the CZ 457 and the Wulf scope based on recommendations on this forum, I fired mostly at 25m, where the MiniMag (1235 FPS) and the Norma Tac-22 (1083 FPS) performed about the same.

Today I had the chance of firing both types of ammo at 50m, and the Norma proved superior to the MiniMag.

Part of the issue might be (I speculate) that the MiniMag goes from supersonic to subsonic within the 25m to 50m range, which makes is accurate at 25m but less so at 50m.

The Norma isn't officially classed as subsonic, but at 1083 FPS it won't go super-then-sub.

Below are the groupings achieved with the Norma (scoped rifle on a bipod), two sets of 5 shots each:

The top group wasn't great, I managed to get two shots out, but as can be seen it's perfectly feasible to have all shots 'in the same hole' with this confidence of rifle, scope, and ammo (if you're better than me, which is not difficult...).

 

[nf-fuse]

I thought that wulf fireball was really nice for what they cost. Certainly good for air rifles

 

[markj1]

Further to the above....

I had the Wulf scope for a while now, quite pleased with it.

However, I noticed that in bright sunlight, when I look at the target through the scope, there's a ring of light around the back circle on the paper target, that changes from green to red and back.

Now, I know that green and red are complementary colors, but my question is if this this is an issue with my eyesight or with the scope, and if it's an issue with the scope, is it normal or does it point to poor quality optics?