Scotland Lead Free Roe Load for .222/.223 Remington

[User00040]

Hi all,

I am developing a 'lead-free' load for Roe in Scotland (.224 bullet at a minimum of 50 grains) and would appreciate input on the following components:

1- Powder, must be a Viht 100 series as that is the only powder my RFD has in stock, looking at 133 and 135.

2- Bullet, at the moment the front runners are as follows (theoretical, have yet to acquire and test)

Lapua Naturalis .224 50 grain (not helpful that Lapua does not specify bullet length, but they load it for .222 Remington so should be OK in a slower twist barrel)

Barnes TTSX 50 grain

Barnes TSX 50 grain

My interest is getting a bullet that will shoot well in an older rifle (slow twist barrel) and hold together well with minimal weight and meat loss, most of the lead offerings in this weight range are geared towards varminting. Loaded round must also be within standard SAAMI/CIP spec which should be fine for a 50 grain pill.

I look forward to your suggestions and input.

Cheers!

 

[Yorric]

I'd try the Barnes TTSX first. Drive it as fast as possible without pressure signs.

Ian

 

[beer can]

ive been using fox 5ogr with 34gr N140 as recommended from ed at Edinburgh rifles.
i have a 22250 t3 with a slow twist. my first group cloverleafed.

 

[takbok]

50gr Fox or Barnes TTSX without tips. I would probably try N130 but don't have experience with Viht in .222. I used Ramshot Xterminator which was ideal for around 50gr bullets

I've tried 45gr Barnes TSX (3400fps) without any joy in my Sako .222 so the 50gr TSX won't likely work as it's longer.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Boat tail ballistic tipped non lead 50gr bullets won’t work in 1:14” twist either .222 or .22-250 (with or without tip)

Fox Classic run with no tip works perfectly
Mainly due to its flat base shorter profile.
Peregrine VRG3 also have a much shorter profile.

.223 is much easier to get a 50-55gr stabilised load

I use RS and Viht exclusively in factory loads.
N130 and personal preference of N133 would be my choice

 

[Steff]

Haven‘t managed to make any lead free bullet fly properly out of my 1:14 twist .222 so far. Fox Classic included.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Pull the tips
They won’t hit **** with them in place
Or we can supply them tip free

22-250 34gr N140 50gr tipless Fox Classic
.222 21gr N133 50gr tipless Fox Classic
Off the top of my head

 

[User00040]

Pull the tips
They won’t hit **** with them in place
Or we can supply them tip free

22-250 34gr N140 50gr tipless Fox Classic
.222 21gr N133 50gr tipless Fox Classic
Off the top of my head

Thanks for sharing, curious about pulling the tips.

Do they affect stability due to length (wouldn't have thought so as they are not a bearing surface) or does the high speed destabilise the bullet somehow when they are in place?

 

[Steff]

Pull the tips
They won’t hit **** with them in place
Or we can supply them tip free

22-250 34gr N140 50gr tipless Fox Classic
.222 21gr N133 50gr tipless Fox Classic
Off the top of my head

Hmmm, thanks for the hint.
At the time I also tried 45grs. bullets, hoping they'd be short enough. Unfortunalely to no avail. But I am willing to give it another go without the tips.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

45s definitely short enough in 1:14” twist
What symptom should we’re you getting?

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Thanks for sharing, curious about pulling the tips.

Do they affect stability due to length (wouldn't have thought so as they are not a bearing surface) or does the high speed destabilise the bullet somehow when they are in place?

The bullet length is more relevant than the weight
Although one is a function of the other
The tip is just that little bit too long for the twist rate and it’s removal brings it back within the length the barrel can stabilise

You can mess around with velocity on marginal stability combinations but it’s a faff
The 60gr soft point I run in my .222 are only stable at a very specific charge level
Either side and the groups open up wildly
They are not tumbling though, they are as I describe travelling on a corkscrew trajectory

 

[Steff]

45s definitely short enough in 1:14” twist
What symptom should we’re you getting?

Just simple inaccuracy, no tumbing. About 2 inch groups were the best I could get out of them with N120. Haven't tried any other powder though. But this was pure bliss compred to the 50 grs (with tips), which would scatter all over the place, some of them not even being on the card.

 

[Tulloch]

For to get non lead to work in a legal capacity in Scotland , you would have to have a rifle with a 1:9 twist rate so you can use 50 and 55gr , but as far as figures go and I have had this discussion with Andrew Venebles who technically agrees the legislation in Scotland would have to change because if not the the .243 will no longer be a red and Sika deer legal calibre as most .243's would not be able to use 100gr minimum and the .223 would not be able to use 50gr or 55gr .

The reason for this is to use non lead all calibre would have to use a weighted bullet that was around 10 to 20gr lighter so for instance , .243 = 85 to 95gr max (illegal in Scotland) .270 would have to move from the preferred 130gr to 110gr, the .308 150gr to 130gr etc etc due to the legal speeds that are also needed.

So for those who like 6mm would have to chose a 6 mm Creed or BR etc to get the twist rate that would allow the speeds that meet legal requirement for the larger bullet.

It is something I will be writing an article on just researching all the info and speaking to my mates who compete and hunt in teh States.

It worries me as it would make a number of calibres defunkt in purpose , .223 - 22-250 - .243 and a few other that are very popular on smaller deer and as all round rifles , I also have a major concern about ricochet as copper bullets bounce like mad. So for instance those that use .220 swift or a 22-250 for foxing like the fact the bullets move that fast that no matter what it hits just breaks up making it safer on stubble or hard ground will no longer have that security when shooting.

It is going to be a minefield that we have to get over. We already have guys breaking Scottish laws on this with their .243's shooting Red and Sika with 85gr and 90gr bullets when they shouldnt whats going to happen if they have to go lead free? and for those that dispute the fact that a 100gr wont work in a .243 on Reds then I have lots of proof it does .

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Not entirely correct.
50 and 55gr non lead bullets are readily available in .223 ammunition and work fine with 1:12" and 1:10" twists

The issue is with .222 and .22-250 which has a 1:14" as standard.
This is still not a problem if a short enough bullet is used.
The weight is not the issue.
It is the length.

The ,243 argument is a slightly different one
The .243 is already at the ragged edge of the 1:10" twist rate's capability using 100gr.
an 80-95 gr bullet has more energy than a 100gr within stalking distances anyway so in this case the law is an ass!
However their ARE 100gr non lead bullets that will stabilise in a standard 1:10" rifle

BUT they are not going to be readily available in factory ammo form and probably will be viewed as sub standard as they are very blunt in profile
Everyone wants super sexy high BC bullets despite the fact that very few of the HIGH BC features in hunting bullets come into effect within 300m

We used short, blunt, round nose soft points for decades!
They still worked well on deer

These will too:

 

[User00040]

Everyone wants super sexy high BC bullets despite the fact that very few of the HIGH BC features in hunting bullets come into effect within 300m

We used short, blunt, round nose soft points for decades!

This explains why:

 

[Yorric]

Ed, you keep dangling the Peregrine carrot in front of us. When will you have them in stock and what price will they be?
Ian

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Ed, you keep dangling the Peregrine carrot in front of us. When will you have them in stock and what price will they be?
Ian

When Dutch and UK customs understand the difference between “bullets” and “ammunition “ and release my pallet from Amsterdam!!!

Soon, soon...

 

[Steff]

Never understood why they put a plastic tip onto the TSX. Or any other bullet for that matter.
WithIn stalking ranges all this B.C. stuff is simply irrelevant. It only makes the bullets longer, but no better.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Never understood why they put a plastic tip onto the TSX. Or any other bullet for that matter.
WithIn stalking ranges all this B.C. stuff is simply irrelevant. It only makes the bullets longer, but no better.

Marketing
It also means it has a larger hollow point to accommodate the tip
That is the critical component to allow it to open on impact

 

[Cawdor118]

Marketing
It also means it has a larger hollow point to accommodate the tip
That is the critical component to allow it to open on impact

How come you have never considered GS Customs for import Ed?