sending your ticket to someone who's rifle you wish to buy

[Eric the Red]

how do you stand with a fac photocopy, after sending the original to a seller ? or is that construed as counterfeiting
how many have been convicted of an offence in this way?
If I have a fac then surely I can be identified as the legitimate holder by giving all the details on that fac without being in possession of it.
or is this just another ill thought out piece of legislative nonsense that is both unimplementable and largely misunderstood by all concerned?

This. There is a difference between title (ownership) and possession.
Consider this example. I wish to purchase a 'shot out' rifle for rebarrelling. According to the legislation, I need a 'slot' for the donor (on assumption it is barrel and action - and let's not go there on switch barrels...) calibre. So I hand it - as my rifle - to the gunsmith, who does the customisation. So on completion of that customisation, have I illegally adapted a rifle - and am I illegally in possession of a firearm (on assumption that I do not have another 'open slot' for the new calibre)? Even if I do have the slot, legislation suggests that I should sign the rifle over - to myself?
In a world where traceability is the real nub of what this is about, it feels very much as if this clarification on a transfer system that has worked very well in the past has not been completely thought through..... if we do not trust RFD's to facilitate change of ownership, we also seriously limit their business models. RFD's are highly accountable - but how do I know that the person selling me a rifle is (a) entitled to sell it; and (b) is the person who really fills out the paperwork. It feels like we are being asked to place trust in a less regulated and regulatable environment - while exposing personal details to any number of unknown entities in the process. When an FAC is lost as a result of being sent away for a transfer, who is responsible - for how long will we be hamstrung without that bit of paper. It's all a bit backward IMO. There is a better way.....

 

[mealiejimmy]

how do you stand with a fac photocopy, after sending the original to a seller ? or is that construed as counterfeiting
how many have been convicted of an offence in this way?
If I have a fac then surely I can be identified as the legitimate holder by giving all the details on that fac without being in possession of it.
or is this just another ill thought out piece of legislative nonsense that is both unimplementable and largely misunderstood by all concerned?

You can't send a photocopy because the seller is supposed to write the details of the sale onto your certificate and sign it.

Cheers

Bruce

Just asked a chap if his 17 hmr was still for sale and it was, but this thing about sending them your certificate is not on,

its stopping honest people from purchasing firearms and getting what they want buy asking the RFD to do it. at both ends, after all they charge you for it.

I for one will not send my certificate to anyone to sign a rifle, mod or what ever onto,

so it looks like this chaps missed many a sale and I will have to buy pocally where the costs are silly,

what a f00kup

bob.

After a buyer and seller have agreed the financial details, it appears to me that there are 3 possibilities for legally changing the ownership of a firearm from the seller to the buyer

1. Face to face - the buyer and seller meet, The seller checks that the buyer has authority to acquire the firearm and then completes the the relevant section of the buyers FAC with the details of the weapon and signs the buyers certificate. Both parties then inform their respective police forces of the details of the transfer

2. The seller takes the weapon to an RFD who transfers the weapon onto his register, therefore removing it from the sellers FAC. The RFD sends the weapon to the buyers RFD, who transfers the weapon onto his register. Both parties notify their respective police forces of the transfer of possession. The buyer goes to his RFD, shows his authority to purchase, following which the RFD completes the relevant section of the buyers FAC and signs it. Both parties notify their respective police forces of the details of the transfer.
This method involves 3 transfers of possession: seller to RFD1, RFD1 to RFD2, RFD2 to buyer and you'd have to expect the RFDs to charge for their admin time as well as the shipping charges

3.The buyer sends his FAC to the seller, who completes the relevant section of the buyers FAC and signs it. The seller send the buyers FAC back to the buyer.
The seller takes the weapon to an RFD and has him send the weapon to the buyers nominated RFD. The buyer goes to the nominated RFD, shows him his FAC with authority to purchase and the details of the weapon he has purchased and takes possession of the weapon. Both parties inform their respective police forces of the transfer.
This is the method the police appear to want people to use - although not all RFDs abide by it

For sure, not everyone is going to agree with the above, so let's hear where you think I got it wrong.
Remember, the priority for the police is knowing at all times who has possession of the weapon.
As long as they have that, then any method of transferring possession shouldn't get you in too much bother
Re not being in possession of your certificate because it is with the seller.
If you are stopped by the police, then a photocopy of your certificate will allow them to check you out on the computer and your reason for not having the original with you is because of the method the police want you to use to transfer possession!

Cheers

Bruce

 

[25 Sharps]

You sell the firearm to Fred, you take it to your RFD who, by agreement, sends it to Freds nominated RFD. Your RFD fills in your FAC, Fred (when collecting) gets his FAC checked and filled in and then you both (you and Fred) inform their respective FELD's of the disposal/acquisition. There is no VAT. The transfer (physical) is handled by the RFD as they are allowed/licenced to do this. The RFD didn't sell anything. He will make a charge (to cover his costs/time etc) which is likely subject to VAT as is the shipping.

The post I was referring to the seller was giving the rifle to the his rfd who then sells to someone else that the the original owner / seller has given him the details for. So if the original owner gives the rifle to the rfd who then sells it for £500 he has made a margin of £500 so he either has to account for full vat on the sale price or 16.67% on the margin.

Oh, and why would the the sending RFD fill in the seller’s FAC there is no section for firearms sold?

 

[Orion]

You sell the firearm to Fred, you take it to your RFD who, by agreement, sends it to Freds nominated RFD. Your RFD fills in your FAC, Fred (when collecting) gets his FAC checked and filled in and then you both (you and Fred) inform their respective FELD's of the disposal/acquisition. There is no VAT. The transfer (physical) is handled by the RFD as they are allowed/licenced to do this. The RFD didn't sell anything. He will make a charge (to cover his costs/time etc) which is likely subject to VAT as is the shipping.

And both you and the purchaser have committed an offence under S.32 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997.

Read about it here.

 

[reloader54]

You can't send a photocopy because the seller is supposed to write the details of the sale onto your certificate and sign it.

Cheers

Bruce


After a buyer and seller have agreed the financial details, it appears to me that there are 3 possibilities for legally changing the ownership of a firearm from the seller to the buyer

1. Face to face - the buyer and seller meet, The seller checks that the buyer has authority to acquire the firearm and then completes the the relevant section of the buyers FAC with the details of the weapon and signs the buyers certificate. Both parties then inform their respective police forces of the details of the transfer

2. The seller takes the weapon to an RFD who transfers the weapon onto his register, therefore removing it from the sellers FAC. The RFD sends the weapon to the buyers RFD, who transfers the weapon onto his register. Both parties notify their respective police forces of the transfer of possession. The buyer goes to his RFD, shows his authority to purchase, following which the RFD completes the relevant section of the buyers FAC and signs it. Both parties notify their respective police forces of the details of the transfer.
This method involves 3 transfers of possession: seller to RFD1, RFD1 to RFD2, RFD2 to buyer and you'd have to expect the RFDs to charge for their admin time as well as the shipping charges

3.The buyer sends his FAC to the seller, who completes the relevant section of the buyers FAC and signs it. The seller send the buyers FAC back to the buyer.
The seller takes the weapon to an RFD and has him send the weapon to the buyers nominated RFD. The buyer goes to the nominated RFD, shows him his FAC with authority to purchase and the details of the weapon he has purchased and takes possession of the weapon. Both parties inform their respective police forces of the transfer.
This is the method the police appear to want people to use - although not all RFDs abide by it

For sure, not everyone is going to agree with the above, so let's hear where you think I got it wrong.
Remember, the priority for the police is knowing at all times who has possession of the weapon.
As long as they have that, then any method of transferring possession shouldn't get you in too much bother
Re not being in possession of your certificate because it is with the seller.
If you are stopped by the police, then a photocopy of your certificate will allow them to check you out on the computer and your reason for not having the original with you is because of the method the police want you to use to transfer possession!

Cheers

Bruce

read it again sir,

I said "send the original" and retain a photocopy.

I also referred to this specifically. " If you are stopped by the police, then a photocopy of your certificate will allow them to check you out on the computer and your reason for not having the original with you is because of the method the police want you to use to transfer possession!"

 

[levigsp]

how do you stand with a fac photocopy, after sending the original to a seller ? or is that construed as counterfeiting
how many have been convicted of an offence in this way?
If I have a fac then surely I can be identified as the legitimate holder by giving all the details on that fac without being in possession of it.
or is this just another ill thought out piece of legislative nonsense that is both unimplementable and largely misunderstood by all concerned?

None and the latter.

 

[Orion]

After a buyer and seller have agreed the financial details, it appears to me that there are 3 possibilities for legally changing the ownership of a firearm from the seller to the buyer

1. Face to face - the buyer and seller meet, The seller checks that the buyer has authority to acquire the firearm and then completes the the relevant section of the buyers FAC with the details of the weapon and signs the buyers certificate. Both parties then inform their respective police forces of the details of the transfer

2. The seller takes the weapon to an RFD who transfers the weapon onto his register, therefore removing it from the sellers FAC. The RFD sends the weapon to the buyers RFD, who transfers the weapon onto his register. Both parties notify their respective police forces of the transfer of possession. The buyer goes to his RFD, shows his authority to purchase, following which the RFD completes the relevant section of the buyers FAC and signs it. Both parties notify their respective police forces of the details of the transfer.
This method involves 3 transfers of possession: seller to RFD1, RFD1 to RFD2, RFD2 to buyer and you'd have to expect the RFDs to charge for their admin time as well as the shipping charges

3.The buyer sends his FAC to the seller, who completes the relevant section of the buyers FAC and signs it. The seller send the buyers FAC back to the buyer.
The seller takes the weapon to an RFD and has him send the weapon to the buyers nominated RFD. The buyer goes to the nominated RFD, shows him his FAC with authority to purchase and the details of the weapon he has purchased and takes possession of the weapon. Both parties inform their respective police forces of the transfer.
This is the method the police appear to want people to use - although not all RFDs abide by it

For sure, not everyone is going to agree with the above, so let's hear where you think I got it wrong.
Remember, the priority for the police is knowing at all times who has possession of the weapon.
As long as they have that, then any method of transferring possession shouldn't get you in too much bother
Re not being in possession of your certificate because it is with the seller.
If you are stopped by the police, then a photocopy of your certificate will allow them to check you out on the computer and your reason for not having the original with you is because of the method the police want you to use to transfer possession!

1 & 3 would be correct. Remote Firearms Transactions

 

[Orion]

According to the law you have to be able to show your firearm ticket when asked for it, if you havnt got it you cannot show it. I have been to 2 meetings about this whole thing, one in Scotland and another in England. The same conclusions were reached. You can send your ticket for the seller to sign, but if your asked for it you might get done! or you can ask a RFD to send the gun etc. Choice is yours and the RFD.

How would you 'get done'? Please point me to the legislation that states I must produce my FAC when asked for it?

It's certainly not S1 Firearms Act 1968 as that simply refers to 'holding' an FAC, nothing about production.

A constable would of course be entitled to seize any firearms if you were unable to produce an FAC and he wasn't satisfied that you were authorised to possess them - but getting done for it?

 

[Highlandsjohn]

Number 2 on Bruce's list is exactly how they used to transfer firearms. It would appear number 3 is the official way now..

 

[levigsp]

How would you 'get done'? Please point me to the legislation that states I must produce my FAC when asked for it?

It's certainly not S1 Firearms Act 1968 as that simply refers to 'holding' an FAC, nothing about production.

Sorry I know someone who left his fire arm ticket at his home in Suffolk whilst stalking with me. He nearly lost it, police were not happy at all and it was the Sga that helped him get it sorted. I do not know of hand the legislation, my copy of countryside law in in England. Also photo copies are often accepted, but legally they don't have to be.

 

[slider]

So, you buy locally. Local prices might be "silly" but you wont have RFD or carriage charges to help counteract that.

You also get an opportunity to see what you are buying and not take the risk that the seller telling you the rifle is something that it is not. That is worth something in itself.

 

[reloader54]

Sorry I know someone who left his fire arm ticket at his home in Suffolk whilst stalking with me. He nearly lost it, police were not happy at all and it was the Sga that helped him get it sorted. I do not know of hand the legislation, my copy of countryside law in in England. Also photo copies are often accepted, but legally they don't have to be.

once again it seems that in spite of irrefutable proof of identity and being a registered fac holder its very much down to the discretion or knowledge of the officers involved.

 

[levigsp]

once again it seems that in spite of irrefutable proof of identity and being a registered fac holder its very much down to the discretion or knowledge of the officers involved.

Correct.

 

[EMcC]

Does he take the 20% VAT on the chin or do you cover it?

He takes my Firearm to sell 'on commision' of £25

 

[Orion]

Sorry I know someone who left his fire arm ticket at his home in Suffolk whilst stalking with me. He nearly lost it, police were not happy at all and it was the Sga that helped him get it sorted. I do not know of hand the legislation, my copy of countryside law in in England. Also photo copies are often accepted, but legally they don't have to be.

Then that sounds like a case of overzealous police who needed reining in by the SGA, as there is no offence of failing to produce an FAC on demand. As above, a constable could seize any firearms if he wasn't happy that the person was authorised to possess them, but no offence of failing to produce an FAC.

 

[reloader54]

So, you buy locally. Local prices might be "silly" but you wont have RFD or carriage charges to help counteract that.

You also get an opportunity to see what you are buying and not take the risk that the seller telling you the rifle is something that it is not. That is worth something in itself.

so you buy local, and the guy tells you "one hole groups all day long mate" you then discover you bought a scattergun,, on can he just shoot better than you. [insert big tongue in cheek here]

 

[reloader54]

Correct.

"mmm,, learning all the time"

 

[Island]

That's just the point, if a RFD sends it to another, NO law is broken, providing they have seller and buyer permission.

Absolutely true. However, completely irrelevant to the point in question. The question does not concern the physical transfer of the firearm, but rather the transfer of ownership of the firearm.

The Firearms Rules 1998 and Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 are quite clear on this.

It is the "transferor" who would complete the table on the "transferee's" certificate and categorically NOT the RFD, who in this capacity has been engaged simply as a properly licensed Bailee.

The RFD's responsibility as Bailee, in addition to the physical shipping of the firearm, is limited to effecting the final face-to-face physical transfer required under Section 32(2)(c) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997.

Do it any other way and, whether you agree with it or not, you are breaking the law.

 

[Mossypaw]

Number 2 on Bruce’s list. At least that’s how I did it on Tuesday this week. Give rifle to RFD. Note to police to state rifle has been ‘given’ not sold and is of your ticket. RFD charges £20 for post and packaging, then sends it to whatever RFD you want (after obtaining a copy of said RFD’s license) Buyer collects rifle from second RFD.
Job done.

 

[Orion]

Number 2 on Bruce’s list. At least that’s how I did it on Tuesday this week. Give rifle to RFD. Note to police to state rifle has been ‘given’ not sold and is of your ticket. RFD charges £20 for post and packaging, then sends it to whatever RFD you want (after obtaining a copy of said RFD’s license) Buyer collects rifle from second RFD.
Job done.

Who pays you?