I dont think dsc1 should be law, although I had to do it, but I do think some sort of centrefire training should be. Even if they picked the safety aspect out of the dsc1 and ran it with a range day.. Problem you have in this situation is poeple could still do the training and then still go out shooting in the evening/out of season but now they think they are safe to do it. Maybe they need naming and shaming to the feo, or they may ruin it for everyone else
Should DMQ 1 be law?
- Thread starter RED-DOT
- Start date
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
It"s only a matter of time before the "MATE" drops a .222 pellet between the eyes of a twitcher type, I would distance myself from him and have a gentle word in the issuing officers shell like over that one it is just beyond the pale.
I first went hunting in the USA while on assignment in the early 90s there but had had 20 years smallbore experience first, then I came back to the UK and did the Stalking certificate in 1995 before DSC1 existed then I left the UK for Germany and had to do the German Jagdschein training course (175 hours of schoolwork plus a lot of shooting rifle/shotgun/pistol on the range training) followed by a very complex exam (over the top IMHO, typically German but it makes you know the ethics and practicalities, the the teachers watch you for shi**y attitudes or unsafe habits and advise either the examiners before the exam or the student early on that he/she does not have what it takes to be a competent shot/hunter.
Glad I did it as it makes you really appreciate nature and not just slotting for profit or to make the farmer happy or whatever.
I first went hunting in the USA while on assignment in the early 90s there but had had 20 years smallbore experience first, then I came back to the UK and did the Stalking certificate in 1995 before DSC1 existed then I left the UK for Germany and had to do the German Jagdschein training course (175 hours of schoolwork plus a lot of shooting rifle/shotgun/pistol on the range training) followed by a very complex exam (over the top IMHO, typically German but it makes you know the ethics and practicalities, the the teachers watch you for shi**y attitudes or unsafe habits and advise either the examiners before the exam or the student early on that he/she does not have what it takes to be a competent shot/hunter.
Glad I did it as it makes you really appreciate nature and not just slotting for profit or to make the farmer happy or whatever.
bambislayer
Well-Known Member
The whole thinking behind DMQ was that if the industry led the way with training and certification it would stop government imposing it on us, and to a point it has worked.
Although on paper the german/european system works, well i've had plenty clients who have been terrible and plenty who have been great, fact is that we as a shooting comunity should be self policing as government legislation wont do it.
If someone is blatantly shooting illeagaly at night , then call the police.
If someone is routinely loosing deer or producing badly shot carcasses then report them for animal cruelty or put pressure on game dealers to stop buying from them.
Tell you local rfd that if they keep selling ammo to these ****s then you [as a collective] will stop using his shop.
If you have dealings with a bad agent then tell everyone, likewise if he is good.
Although on paper the german/european system works, well i've had plenty clients who have been terrible and plenty who have been great, fact is that we as a shooting comunity should be self policing as government legislation wont do it.
If someone is blatantly shooting illeagaly at night , then call the police.
If someone is routinely loosing deer or producing badly shot carcasses then report them for animal cruelty or put pressure on game dealers to stop buying from them.
Tell you local rfd that if they keep selling ammo to these ****s then you [as a collective] will stop using his shop.
If you have dealings with a bad agent then tell everyone, likewise if he is good.
RED-DOT
Well-Known Member
Hi, as the original poster i seem to be getting slammed for posting about my "MATE"... well he is a great guy and has only been a gun in a few pheasant syndicates and i tried to train him on safe shooting on many fox outings. He has this very light .222 and it DOES kick like a mule as it is so light and has no moderator on. It is hard work to use and my .243 seems like a .22 in comparison. I have tried to stop him doing his thing but he is an ex air-rifle shooter and just has no respect for his centre fire. Its accuracy is very much in doubt as i am a good shot and cannot aquire a group at all in a 6" paper target. I have told him to bin it and move to a moderated .22.250 or so but he says they "are too heavy".
He is a great guy but a little DMQ 1 tuition may help in his safety, hygene. bullet placement, laws and manners?
Sorry for posting in wrong category but maybe Admin could move it?
He is a great guy but a little DMQ 1 tuition may help in his safety, hygene. bullet placement, laws and manners?
Sorry for posting in wrong category but maybe Admin could move it?
KevinF
Well-Known Member
Really? You describe the behaviour of a callous, arrogant, ignorant, dangerous, law-breaker.
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Hi, I don't think admin should remove this thread ,I think that you should remove your self from your so called mate ,as you will soon be tarnished with his unacceptable behaviour. I am not a stalking snob by any means but this person would be quickly removed from any syndicate and have his fac shooved up his ars....e as should any one else who disrespects the wildlife. These animals pay a high price for our enjoyment ,so we should atleast show some respect. Bozzy
I lost a very good mate once over, amoungst other things, dangerous shooting and inappropriate behaviour. It wasn't entirely his fault but I won't go into details. It was a bloody tough call and I got alot of flak from 'friends of friends' who didn't know the full story, I could of defended myself but would have had to paint him in an even worse light so I said what I had to say to my mate and turned the other cheek. To be honest, I probably should have spoken to the Police but didn't.
Back to Red Dots mate, bad etiquette and poor judgement are one thing but illegal behaviour is quite another as we can see from 17 pages on the subject. As for shooting at live animals with a rifle that cannot hold a 6'' group, that is simply stupid and cruel.
JC
Back to Red Dots mate, bad etiquette and poor judgement are one thing but illegal behaviour is quite another as we can see from 17 pages on the subject. As for shooting at live animals with a rifle that cannot hold a 6'' group, that is simply stupid and cruel.
JC
Dick darstardly
Well-Known Member
I voted Yes in the poll....this comes from personel experiance. Whilst undertaking my DCS Level1 i frequently talked with a chap that was a keen pigeon shooter, through a bought pigeon day he gained exposure to deer stalking. The chap whom was offering the pigeon offered him a go on the Roe at the estate. When i next spoke with him i asked how he got on......He said he had a great time. His first shot at a deer was 160 yard front on shot....this beast was wounded and not retreived. His secong was an old Roe Buck with a Night vision scope (this was during the doe season and the night vision scope was used as you would imagine because it was at night). The chap who was stalking knew not one thing about stalking i dont doubt that for a second he didnt realise he had broken the law twice by taking the buck and shooting deer at night, to me it highlighted that without the training then first time stalkers could take a shot without prompting the thought of ...160 yards...front on...my first ever rifle shot.....AM I GOING TO KILL THIS THING! Ithink if training was a requirment then people like this game keeper couldnt ply there trade like this as an informed stalker wouldnt take either shot. Just my opinion
Rgds
Rgds
bambislayer
Well-Known Member
I'm sure most of us come across inappropriate behavior, be it rudeness, dangerous shooting, down right ignorance.
How many people say something????
I'm not a particularily loud or even forward person by nature, but I was taught very early on in my keepering/shooting career that you are not there to be mates with everyone , you are there as a professional and should act accordingly.
It is not nice being in a situation where you know that you are going to cause embarassment to someone or possibly cause a scene but I'd rather embarass than see someone hurt.
If someone is being dangerous , tell them , it might be that with a bit of guideance they are ok as they weren't aware of their actions, they may ignore you,if so tell them to stop shooting or leave [failling that wrap the barrels around there neck] but if everyone tells them to leave they will eventually take the hint or not have the opportunity to shoot.
I think by baptism of fire everyone should at least once be put in charge of 20 italian shooters on a walked up day, you soon become forcefull[or dead].
A lot of people now come into feildsports later in life [which is not a bad thing], not everyone has the chance of being mentored from a young age, starting with a 410 and climbing the ladder with age and experience.
You can't just expect everyone to have the same experience, we have to share and mentor those coming in to the sport/profession. Which is idealy what this site does ,as well as malcs highland trips. Government or legislation can not provide this.
How many people say something????
I'm not a particularily loud or even forward person by nature, but I was taught very early on in my keepering/shooting career that you are not there to be mates with everyone , you are there as a professional and should act accordingly.
It is not nice being in a situation where you know that you are going to cause embarassment to someone or possibly cause a scene but I'd rather embarass than see someone hurt.
If someone is being dangerous , tell them , it might be that with a bit of guideance they are ok as they weren't aware of their actions, they may ignore you,if so tell them to stop shooting or leave [failling that wrap the barrels around there neck] but if everyone tells them to leave they will eventually take the hint or not have the opportunity to shoot.
I think by baptism of fire everyone should at least once be put in charge of 20 italian shooters on a walked up day, you soon become forcefull[or dead].
A lot of people now come into feildsports later in life [which is not a bad thing], not everyone has the chance of being mentored from a young age, starting with a 410 and climbing the ladder with age and experience.
You can't just expect everyone to have the same experience, we have to share and mentor those coming in to the sport/profession. Which is idealy what this site does ,as well as malcs highland trips. Government or legislation can not provide this.
every word of this is true!!! spoken like a true professional!!
ps how much is your hind stalking??
Dick darstardly
Well-Known Member
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
No...........................
And you need to think about who your real mates are.
And you need to think about who your real mates are.
Muntjac
Well-Known Member
KevinF
Well-Known Member
My (very limited) experience is that FEO's like to see that shooters have made an effort to get trained before issuing a FAC. I got my first certificate last Saturday. It allows me to have a .22 rimfire, a 6.5 x 55 and a 7mm Rem Mag. I am permitted to shoot all three on any land passed suitable by the relevant Chief Constable.
Prior to making my FAC application I did a rifle awareness course followed by DSC1. I also joined a rifle club, at which I receive training. I've joined a syndicate with ground in Scotland. The FEO paid particular attention to the rifle course and seemed to like it.
The rifle course, DSC 1 and other training have been really useful and I've learnt loads from them. However, I have learnt most from the 5 or 6 accompanied stalks that I've done with pro guides. One to one time with experienced people has been invaluable. That said, I view the receipt of my FAC as the start of my journey into unaccompanied stalking. I have a huge amount to learn.
I personally don't think that DSC 1 should become law. However, in the abscence of a portfolio of vocational experience, DSC 1, rifle courses and other demonstrable forms of training can be very useful for the novice and can help to open doors.
Cheers,
Bob
Prior to making my FAC application I did a rifle awareness course followed by DSC1. I also joined a rifle club, at which I receive training. I've joined a syndicate with ground in Scotland. The FEO paid particular attention to the rifle course and seemed to like it.
The rifle course, DSC 1 and other training have been really useful and I've learnt loads from them. However, I have learnt most from the 5 or 6 accompanied stalks that I've done with pro guides. One to one time with experienced people has been invaluable. That said, I view the receipt of my FAC as the start of my journey into unaccompanied stalking. I have a huge amount to learn.
I personally don't think that DSC 1 should become law. However, in the abscence of a portfolio of vocational experience, DSC 1, rifle courses and other demonstrable forms of training can be very useful for the novice and can help to open doors.
Cheers,
Bob
I do not disagree that an element of training regarding the safe use of firearms is a worthy issue, on that point we are agreed.
I also agree that DSC should not be compulsary. Doubtless they seem useful and will benefit more than it will not, that said it should still not be a legal requirement.
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Monkey Spanker
Well-Known Member
I see the 'yes' vote is catching up a bit! I think if you had worded the question slightly differently and not narrowed it down to DSC 1 you might have had a more even response?
OK then, consider this....
YOU are now the FEO!
I am a young chap of 21 years old who you don't know at all. I have done a bit of clay shooting at school and once won a goldfish at the fair shooting a cork out of a bent barrelled BSA cadet major!
I work on a golf course where some Fallow have been causing damage to the greens by crossing them. My boss wants them all shot but has asked me not to frighten the golfers too much so I want a moderated 300 win mag so I can get them quietly across the other side of the golf course from the mower shed. I've seen silencers used in the films and they are so quiet it's amazing! That'll be fine won't it, and my boss will be well chuffed! It's the middle of summer so we can have loads of steaks for the Barbie! Can I have it then??
So.. can I? Your choice now!
I have no idea what I am doing, not a clue about safety, no idea about deer seasons, etc..
YOUR choice having voted NO about training. Your ass now on the line at the subsequent board of enquiry.
I've got somewhere to shoot legally with the owners permission, no criminal record, why can't I have it?
Go on then sign my form, there's no law to say I have to be trained!
So, would you?
No, I didn't think so!
MS
OK then, consider this....
YOU are now the FEO!
I am a young chap of 21 years old who you don't know at all. I have done a bit of clay shooting at school and once won a goldfish at the fair shooting a cork out of a bent barrelled BSA cadet major!
I work on a golf course where some Fallow have been causing damage to the greens by crossing them. My boss wants them all shot but has asked me not to frighten the golfers too much so I want a moderated 300 win mag so I can get them quietly across the other side of the golf course from the mower shed. I've seen silencers used in the films and they are so quiet it's amazing! That'll be fine won't it, and my boss will be well chuffed! It's the middle of summer so we can have loads of steaks for the Barbie! Can I have it then??
So.. can I? Your choice now!
I have no idea what I am doing, not a clue about safety, no idea about deer seasons, etc..
YOUR choice having voted NO about training. Your ass now on the line at the subsequent board of enquiry.
I've got somewhere to shoot legally with the owners permission, no criminal record, why can't I have it?
Go on then sign my form, there's no law to say I have to be trained!
So, would you?
No, I didn't think so!
MS
Brithunter
Well-Known Member
So the fact that you can get the DSC1 with little to no real experience with shooting rifles is not an issue?
The fact that Germany with it's compulsory training has far more shooting related accidents than here according the ROSPA figures is not an issue?
Let's face it the DSC course are there to make money for the organisers.
The fact that Germany with it's compulsory training has far more shooting related accidents than here according the ROSPA figures is not an issue?
Let's face it the DSC course are there to make money for the organisers.
wildgoose1uk
Well-Known Member
Ok - When I read the vote question I read it as 'should training be law?' and not as 'Should DSC1 training be law?' My yes vote was relating to training in general and not just DSC1. I suppose I may have answered the wrong question but how many others have too.... Maybe we shold have a new poll for training in general and dsc1 seperated out?
Harry mac
Well-Known Member
I agree totally that training should not be a legal requirement. When it comes down to the FEO making a decision as to whether or not you're a fit person, then it has nothing to do with whether or not he thinks you have experience. The guy has to make a judgement call based on his findings about you. Even if you are the most law abiding person in the world, with all your "ducks in a row" regarding permission etc. the FEO can still legally refuse you an FAC. He only has to say that you didn't satisfy him that you can be trusted to own a firearm without danger to public safety.
I notice that a lot of contributors on here keep siting the unsafe attitudes and practices prevalent amongst continental hunters. All(?) the other countries in Europe have compulsory hunter testing and licensing, it doesn't stop some of them acting dangerously, and wont stop some Brits doing the same, whether here or abroad.
I was based in Germany for many years and also hold a jagdschein. Hunting in Germany is regulated to the hilt and the safety aspect of the jagdschein exam is quite strict, but as Brithunter pointed out, it doesn't stop German hunters accidentally shooting each other at an alarming rate! Whilst on the subject of Germany. When I was there I used to attend fairs such as the Jagd und Hund, and Pferd und Jagd, as well as various arms fairs. On one of the fairs I visited there was a hunting association stand which was exhibiting a graph showing every country in Europe and detailing how many hunters there were per 10,000 head of population. UK was top of the league and we are the only country that does not have compulsory hunting licenses in place. I firmly believe that it's due to the "lack" of regulation in this respect that fieldsports are so popular in this country. Licensing would only reduce our numbers still further and make it easier to ultimately get rid of us.
Sorry for the long post, I'll draw breath now.
I notice that a lot of contributors on here keep siting the unsafe attitudes and practices prevalent amongst continental hunters. All(?) the other countries in Europe have compulsory hunter testing and licensing, it doesn't stop some of them acting dangerously, and wont stop some Brits doing the same, whether here or abroad.
I was based in Germany for many years and also hold a jagdschein. Hunting in Germany is regulated to the hilt and the safety aspect of the jagdschein exam is quite strict, but as Brithunter pointed out, it doesn't stop German hunters accidentally shooting each other at an alarming rate! Whilst on the subject of Germany. When I was there I used to attend fairs such as the Jagd und Hund, and Pferd und Jagd, as well as various arms fairs. On one of the fairs I visited there was a hunting association stand which was exhibiting a graph showing every country in Europe and detailing how many hunters there were per 10,000 head of population. UK was top of the league and we are the only country that does not have compulsory hunting licenses in place. I firmly believe that it's due to the "lack" of regulation in this respect that fieldsports are so popular in this country. Licensing would only reduce our numbers still further and make it easier to ultimately get rid of us.
Sorry for the long post, I'll draw breath now.
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