Taking land owner stalking

[Husk]

Ok, I have what I think is a simple question but I'm struggling to wade though the internet to find the answer. The land owner of my permission wants to go stalking and shoot a deer. They do not have a firearms licence and want me to guide them and use my rifle to shoot a deer. Is this legal ? Thanks some clarity would be much appreciated.

 

[bobt]

yes under the estate rifle clause, if he likes it you may lose the permission,

 

[Rake Aboot]

Yes perfectly legal

 

[nf-fuse]

Surely nothing illegal about using a someone's gun under their supervision.

 

[enfieldspares]

What are the facts, what is the law, apply the law to the facts and then you have your answer. I have emboldened what I think is actually the most important of a number of important requirements.

The land owner of my permission wants to go stalking and shoot a deer.

The law on an "estate rifle" says this.

Section 11A of the Firearms Act 1968 subsumes the rifle exemption at Section 16 of the Firearms Act 1968.

New Section 11A allows a non-certificate holder to borrow a rifle and use it in the presence of a certificate holder on private premises. The following criteria must be met

• The borrower of a rifle must be aged 17 or older.
• The lender must be aged 18 or older and have a certificate in respect of the rifle.
• The borrower must be in the presence of the lender, ie. in sight and earshot.
• The use of a rifle must comply with any conditions on the certificate held in respect of that rifle.
• The purpose of the loan is only for hunting animals, shooting game or vermin or shooting artificial targets.
• The lender must be;

1. a) a person who has the right to allow others to enter the premises for the purpose of hunting animals or shooting game or vermin, or
2. b) a person authorised by them in writing.

That the person who wishes to come is the landowner is however affected by who holds the shooting rights. Sporting rights can be owned separately from the land over which they are exercised.

That is what 1. a) requires. That YOU must have the right to shoot over the land AND that you must have the right to allow others to do so. So be aware of that if your permission is not from the landowner but from someone else who exclusively has the sporting rights.

An example might be that first where the sporting rights are held solely by the League Against Cruel Sports, or another owns them and you and you alone have permission from LACS, or that other, to shoot only foxes and only under specific strict circumstances.

SO WHO HAS THE SPORTING RIGHTS AND DOES THE PERMISSION YOU HAVE FROM THE SPORTING RIGHTS PERMIT YOU TO ALLOW OTHERS TO HUNT DEER THERE ON? IF IT DOESN'T THEN IF POSSESSION OF THOSE RIGHTS IS EXCLUSIVE TO THOSE THAT HOLD THEM THE LANDOWNER MAY IN FACT OF LAW BE POACHING.

If of course the landowner is the person that you have the permission from then yes as by what he is doing he is giving you permission to allow an "other" (which is him) to hunt animals. But as said be aware of the conditions of your FAC regarding quarry you personally are conditioned to shoot.

Also be aware that if your Certificate conditions are for "vermin" then there may be a breach of condition if you allow the person "borrowing" the rifle to shoot a deer.

Last note that despite Mr Bumble declaring that "the law is an ass" that you need to satisfy 2. b) and issue a written chit.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Have they fired a centrefire rifle? If they have zero experience of rifle shooting, I'd first 'encourage' them to get some experience at a target with you acting as coach. I appreciate you're subject to a degree of pressure due to their status as Landowner but hopefully they would respond positively to your concerns around both firearms safety and humane deer management.

K

 

[Triggermortis]

Are you satisfied the landowner is not a “prohibited Person”
i.e someone with conviction that prohibits them from using firearms?

 

[Husk]

What are the facts, what is the law, apply the law to the facts and then you have your answer. I have emboldened what I think is actually the most important of a number of important requirements.

The land owner of my permission wants to go stalking and shoot a deer.

The law on an "estate rifle" says this.

Section 11A of the Firearms Act 1968 subsumes the rifle exemption at Section 16 of the Firearms Act 1968.

New Section 11A allows a non-certificate holder to borrow a rifle and use it in the presence of a certificate holder on private premises. The following criteria must be met

• The borrower of a rifle must be aged 17 or older.
• The lender must be aged 18 or older and have a certificate in respect of the rifle.
• The borrower must be in the presence of the lender, ie. in sight and earshot.
• The use of a rifle must comply with any conditions on the certificate held in respect of that rifle.
• The purpose of the loan is only for hunting animals, shooting game or vermin or shooting artificial targets.
• The lender must be;

1. a) a person who has the right to allow others to enter the premises for the purpose of hunting animals or shooting game or vermin, or
2. b) a person authorised by them in writing.

That the person who wishes to come is the landowner is however affected by who holds the shooting rights. Sporting rights can be owned separately from the land over which they are exercised.

That is what 1. a) requires. That YOU must have the right to shoot over the land AND that you must have the right to allow others to do so. So be aware of that if your permission is not from the landowner but from someone else who exclusively has the sporting rights.

An example might be that first where the sporting rights are held solely by the League Against Cruel Sports, or another owns them and you and you alone have permission from LACS, or that other, to shoot only foxes and only under specific strict circumstances.

SO WHO HAS THE SPORTING RIGHTS AND DOES THE PERMISSION YOU HAVE FROM THE SPORTING RIGHTS PERMIT YOU TO ALLOW OTHERS TO HUNT DEER THERE ON? IF IT DOESN'T THEN IF POSSESSION OF THOSE RIGHTS IS EXCLUSIVE TO THOSE THAT HOLD THEM THE LANDOWNER MAY IN FACT OF LAW BE POACHING.

If of course the landowner is the person that you have the permission from then yes as by what he is doing he is giving you permission to allow an "other" (which is him) to hunt animals. But as said be aware of the conditions of your FAC regarding quarry you personally are conditioned to shoot.

Also be aware that if your Certificate conditions are for "vermin" then there may be a breach of condition if you allow the person "borrowing" the rifle to shoot a deer.

Last note that despite Mr Bumble declaring that "the law is an ass" that you need to satisfy 2. b) and issue a written chit.

Thanks, for taking the time to write that's, that's helped a great deal.

 

[Husk]

Have they fired a centrefire rifle? If they have zero experience of rifle shooting, I'd first 'encourage' them to get some experience at a target with you acting as coach. I appreciate you're subject to a degree of pressure due to their status as Landowner but hopefully they would respond positively to your concerns around both firearms safety and humane deer management.

K

They have shot deer before and they semi regularly head up Scotland after reds. Doesn't mean much in terms of skill but they have a lot knowledge of firearms.

 

[triggertrix]

Ok, I have what I think is a simple question but I'm struggling to wade though the internet to find the answer. The land owner of my permission wants to go stalking and shoot a deer. They do not have a firearms licence and want me to guide them and use my rifle to shoot a deer. Is this legal ? Thanks some clarity would be much appreciated.

You’ll be waving goodbye to that permission soon then

 

[Tim.243]

You’ll be waving goodbye to that permission soon then

What would you suggest he does then? More arm chair advice from the key board/phone/device warriors
One farmer comes for a couple of hours pigeon shooting over the years, we are both left handed so my Browning fits him very well. He brings a bag of cartridges turns up and gets stuck in also a very good shot, we have shared bags of 100 150 340
Other farmers sons the same stalking foxing
I will take young Jack (farmers son) later this year as he has his own 20b

Stop talking bollicxxxx

 

[TringSaint]

What would you suggest he does then? More arm chair advice from the key board/phone/device warriors
One farmer comes for a couple of hours pigeon shooting over the years, we are both left handed so my Browning fits him very well. He brings a bag of cartridges turns up and gets stuck in also a very good shot, we have shared bags of 100 150 340
Other farmers sons the same stalking foxing
I will take young Jack (farmers son) later this year as he has his own 20b

Stop talking bollicxxxx

Indeed - one of my farmers stalks one of the farms I shoot on. He wants to put a few in the freezer so takes a handful every year, but his land needs 15-20 taking and he has neither the time nor the inclination to shoot and process that many, so I do the rest.
Works just fine for both of us.

 

[Husk]

You’ll be waving goodbye to that permission soon then

Doubt it. I think everyone should take land owners out if possible. It's good for them to get an idea of what really going into shooting deer. If they where that interested in shooting deer themselves i doubt I'd have permission in the first place.

 

[triggertrix]

Doubt it. I think everyone should take land owners out if possible. It's good for them to get an idea of what really going into shooting deer. If they where that interested in shooting deer themselves i doubt I'd have permission in the first place.

That’s good to hear! Let’s hope so

 

[willie_gunn]

You will be perfectly within the law to take him stalking.

If you want positive confirmation from a reputable body to support this being the case, by all means print this out and/or send the link to the landowner beforehand:

Borrowing rifles on private premises

Explaining the law around what you can and can't do when it comes to borrowing a rifle for use on private premises.

basc.org.uk

Keep in mind a couple of things, even if they are at the more "theoretical" end of the scale:

• you can't charge him for the rounds used, not that you necessarily would
• does he have his own insurance, e.g, BASC, etc? If not, do you have insurance to cover him?

 

[Rafter]

You’ll be waving goodbye to that permission soon then

He'd probably be waving goodbye to it a lot faster if he refuses.

One way MAY be deleterious to his access, the other definitely would be.