The correct way to mount Optilocks

Your post reminded me of my instructions for zeroing. I feel they are so excellent that I think they must be recreated in detail here:

How to zero (relevant to the OP since the rifle in question was wearing Optilocks...)

Step 1: put target at 25. Do not bother to bore sight. Do not bother to use a colaminator. Blithely assume that, at this distance, you couldn't possibly need to do either.
Step 2: fire shot. Observe large clod of earth displaced about a foot to the left of the target.
Step 3: refuse to believe, despite the evidence before your eyes, that you can possibly be shooting that far off at ONLY 25 yards.
Step 4: without adjusting anything, fire 2 more shots. The crater a foot to the left of the target grows.
Step 5: reluctantly accept that maybe you should have tried bore sighting, but decide to push on anyway.
Step 6: adjust scope (taking care to forget that 1 click at 25 yards will not move the POI very far at all).
Step 7: fire 2 more shots. Express wild incredulity that, despite moving scope 6 clicks to the right, you are only just shaving the edge of the carboard box.
Step 8: fire 2 more shots just to be sure. The ground behind and slightly to the left of the box is now beginning to resemble the beaten zone on a battlefield. Spend some moments admiring this and musing on the nature of warfare and man's inhumanity to man.
Step 9: continue to forget that 1 click at 25 yards will not move POI verty far. Adjust scope 'a few' more clicks to the right.
[Important note: at every stage, the critical number of clicks to adjust the scope must always be 'a few'. Under no circumstances pay any attention to the helpful notice on the scope turrets informing you that '1 click = 1cm at 100m', and certainly do not use this in a meaningful and constructive way when planning how much to adjust your scope].
Step 10: decide something must be terribly wrong, that Sakos are rubbish rifles and you've been sold a lemon, that Meopta scopes are worthless baked bean tins and that Sako ammo cannot be trusted. In fact, blame the farmer for not mowing the grass in your favourite zeroing field, blame the cows for looking at you funny, blame your pregnant wife for needing to go the toilet twice in the night, and blame everyone on SD just because.
Step 11: revist your musing on the nature of war, and consider the fact that the very impressive craters in the meadow were made by 'only' a .243, and imagine what being under fire from a .50Cal must be like. Congratulate self on being born at the end of the 20th century, rather than the start.
Step 12: adjust the scope 'a great many' clicks to the right (please note that I am a trained scientist, so while 'a few' and 'a great many' may seem arbitrary to the uninitiated, they are well established units of scientific measurement).
Step 13: fire a shot. Feel a wash of immense satisfaction to see it strike within the 2 inch ring.
Step 14: fire 3 more shots, just because it's really very easy to print a group with touching holes at 25 yards.
Step 15: rush these shots and scatter them. Crash into despondency.
Step 16: become aware that you are under observation by 3 five year old girls and their mother. Become needlessly furtive and nervous.
Step 17: accept offer of a daisy chain. Agree that bunnies are cute but eat daddies veggies, so should be shot (mental note to self: rural children are rather more robust and unsentimental than urban ones).
Step 18: accept offer of tea later when have completed recreation of Third Battle of Ypres in the meadow.
Step 19: wait patiently for girls plus chaperone to wander a safe distance away. Promise not to shoot any lambs.
Step 20: Move target box to 100. Roll up sleeves, hitch belt up a notch, spit on hands - generally prepare self for 'the real deal'.
Step 21: Fire a shot. Express utter incredulity that this is now 7 inches high.
Step 22: decide this must be operator error (a rare admission), so refuse to make any adjustments.
Step 23: fire 2 more shots. Feel inordinately pleased that these clover leaf with the first (still 7 inches high). Decide you are a really very good shot indeed.
Step 24: completely forget that, now, (as the scope turrets kindly point out), 1 click really does equal 1 cm.
Step 25: adjust scope 'a great many' clicks down.
Step 26: fire a shot. In horror realise that it has gone 2 inches low.
Step 27: decide that the scope is clearly faulty and that you have a bedding problem with your rifle.
Step 28: roll on back, chew grass stem, contemplate glorious early summer day. Watch buzzards being harrassed by rooks. Listen to skylarks. Try to calculate whether you can afford an EVEN BETTER scope and to have rifle bedded.
Step 29: suddenly remember that 1 click does really equal 1 cm at 100 metres. Congratulate self on deep understanding of ballistics.
Step 30: adjust scope up 'a couple' clicks (this is clearly more precise than 'a few').
Step 31: fire a shot.
Step 32: stare in befuddlement at target through scope. Shot is nowhere to be seen.
Step 33: walk down to target. Dance triumphant jig of joy upon discovering that shot is perfectly in bull.
Step 34: rush back to rifle, loose of 2 more confirmatory shots.
Step 35: plunge into despair when these go wildly wide.
Step 36: using new found maturity and wisdom, accept that this has nothing to do with anything but your own incompetence.
Step 37: calm down. Have a pee. Have a cup of tea. Spend some more time contemplating the glorious Scottish countryside.
Step 38: with the utmost concentration and care, using every scrap of the principles of marksmanship, slowly and methodically fire a 3 shot group.
Step 40: breathe a very long sigh of relief when these form the kind of group you want to pin up in the downstairs loo.

Congratulations - you have just used an entire box of ammo to zero, whiled away a beautiful morning in an idyllic place, and learned precisely nothing (you will do exactly this all over again the next time).

:rofl: Thanks Mungo, you must have seen me re-zero the Heym this morning after a S+B scope refit following warranty work.. with the exception of steps 16-19 its spot on... and I have a perfectly good bore scope which I thought I really did not need.:rofl: ohh well, certainly proved a point.
 
I fitted a new set of Optilocks to my new Sako 85 no problem all i had to do was file down the length of the recoil pin to a depth to fit the slot in the top of the action.
Initial bore sighting and first shot printed 8" to the left of my aiming point @ 100yds quick adjustment and two shots later was spot on:-D

Ian.

No Problem apart from having to file down part of the Base in order for it to fit a rifle it was designed to fit? I've got Optilocks on my Sako75 and although they fit and work well I think they're not the best engineered things and over priced for the faffing required
 
From what I understand, this is quite well known with mods: they can create something like a reflected shock wave that moves along the barrel in the opposite direction to the usual recoil. This can cause problems for scopes, and (as I understand) is why some scope manufacturers won't honour a warranty if used on a rifle with a mod.

Here's a reasonable explanation of the 'double recoil impulse theory' & it's effect on scopes.

www.guntrader.co.uk: Forum - View topic - Broken Swarovski 6x42




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[h=3]FORUM > VIEW TOPIC - BROKEN SWAROVSKI 6X42[/h]
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[h=2]BROKEN SWAROVSKI 6X42[/h]


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Broken Swarovski 6x42


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[TD="class: row, align: center"]PeteLincoln

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:53 pm
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Re: Broken Swarovski 6x42
Robin, the scopes are bieng replaced with Schmidt & Bender 3-12x50's.
wire reticles and moderators do not mix well, some stand up to it better than others and Swarovski have a real problem with a particular set of scopes/reticles.

You need to tell Swarovski that the scope is failing on a moderated rifle.

Now my mate with the commission called up Peter Jackson to see if he had heared anything about scope failures and moderators, Peter got on the defensive as he obviously didn't want a bad rap on the mods he is selling and wouldn't have anything of the double recoil impulse thoery.
Its not a moderator problem, its a scope problem.
However. regarding the double recoil impulse thoery, it exists.

We have to take note of Newtons third law of physics "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." rifle (or any gun) recoil is a result of momentum conservation, which is an extremely important fundamental principle. Newton was talking about momentum conservation when he wrote his 3rd law

when you fire a rifle, from the forward action of the firing pin through the ignition of the primer and propellant, the expansion of the propellant gasses, the departure of the projectile(bullet) from the case, its entry into the bore, the friction created in the bore, the exit of the projectile from the bore, the exhaust jet force of the propellant gasses from the bore. They all create forces acting in one direction or another. Certainly the forward force of the firing pin is lesser noticable, but is the same fort of force that you notice when firing a spring airgun. We create within the rifle certain forces of momentum.

Momentum characterizes an object's resistance to change in motion. If this is motion along a straight line, we call it linear momentum; if it is rotational motion we call it angular momentum. The basic idea is the same: moving things like to keep moving, and to change their motion we have to apply a force. If no force is present, then momentum doesn't change, ie. it is conserved.
A bullet coming out of a gun has a huge force on it from the exploding propellant and that force is what propels the bullet forward. However, if you look at a bullet and gun together (say while the bullet is still in the barrel but already heading out at full speed), you can say there is no net force on the bullet-gun system. So the momentum of the bullet plus gun should be conserved.

If the bullet has mass mb and speed vb out of the gun, it has momentum pb given simply by

pb = mbvb

in the forward direction. To balance this momentum (and keep the net momentum of the bullet-gun system zero), the gun recoils with momentum in the opposite direction: pg = -pb, or
mgvg = -mbvb

Although the bullet's mass is small, its speed is large, so it released with large momentum. The gun has much larger mass, so the recoil speed is much smaller, but still large enough to give a serious kick against the shooter's shoulder.

Example: Winchester .308
A Winchester .308 cartridge launches a bullet of mass 150 grains (1 grain = 64.8 mg) with a speed of 2820 ft/s (1 ft = 30.5 cm). In MKS units, then, pb = 8.4 kg m/s. This rifle has a weight of about 8 lbs, or a mass of mg = 3.8 kg. That means the recoil speed of the rifle will be
vg = - pb/mg = -2.2 m/s

This primary recoil is noticeable, but not the main recoil that one feels.
Secondary Recoil
There are actually two distinct recoils from a gun: the first, primary recoil, which I've described above, conserves momentum of the gun-bullet system. However, a larger secondary recoil comes slightly later, when the bullet leaves the muzzle: then the hot expanding gas behind the bullet exit the muzzle, and the muzzle recoils further like a rocket.( often called the jet effect) This is, again, conservation of momentum, but in this case it is the gas momentum out of the barrel that makes the secondary recoil.. Primary recoil cannot be reduced, since it is simply associated with the forward momentum of the bullet.
Equations
linear momentum: p = mv
Summary
The total momentum of a system is conserved if there are no outside forces acting on it.
Gun recoil results from conservation of total momentum of the bullet-gun system: the backward recoil gun momentum balances the forward bullet momentum to maintain zero total momentum.
Gun recoil actually has two parts: primary recoil from the escaping bullet and secondary recoil from the escaping gas behind the bullet.

when we place a muzzle break on the rifle barrel, we attempt reduce the flow of gas out to of the muzzle in an attempt to reduce secondary recoil, this adds another momentum force. With the propellant gasses acting on the surfaces of the muzzle break, acting to pull the rifle forwards and thus reduce felt (or secondary) recoil. A moderator does the same but also captures more for the forward force as it has larger bearing surfases than a muzzle break and is thus more efficient, reducing secondary recoil to a larger extent.

Our poor old rifle scope and mounts are basicaly just along for the ride, they are passangers and are subjected to all the above mentioned forces.
If you imagine a wire reticle sat in a scope, minding its own business, it is then, upon firing the rifle subjected to secondary recoil, the rifle underneath the scope (and the fixed scope mounts) are forced backwards under the force of recoil, ( the oposite and equal action to the forward force of the bullet) and thus the scope becomes and opposite and equal force to the rearward momentum of the rifle, the internals of the scope, bieng far from solídly attached are subjected to immense G forces.

with a wire reticle you can aliken this to a spiders web spun in a cross shape through
the centre of a car, you then subject that delicate spiders web to the forces of excelleration ( ferarri F40 style) and a head on with a brick wall, all within milliseconds. something is going to give and the spiders web will become detached.

A glas etched reticle, alternatively, could be likened to a cross scratched or painted on the windscreen, it is subjected to the same forces as the spiders web, but is ultimately more resistant to recoil.
Of course, we can take the recoil to extreems and arrive at a point at which even the windscreem becomes detached or loose ( and this is what happens when lenses come loose in cheaper, poorly manufactured scopes)

Now ive had to take an indepth look at the g forces involved in firing a gun in several areas of my professional career, ranging from centre fire rifle , through tank and artillery guns up to the ultimate gun, the Jules Verne Launcher (JVL). which is part of the SHARP project, an attempt to fire objects into space by using a gun (gas powered) rather than a carrier rocket, in the JVL projectiles ( scramjet) are subjected to forces in the area of 30000 G and are aproaching a MV of 2800m/s ( over 9300 FPS or mach 8) .

getting side tracked there, anyway, from the research and studies carried out, i find it absolutely no wonder the reticles and scopes rail under the effects of recoil, especialy when we try to reduce or capture secondary recoil,
when we add a muzzle break, and to a greater extent a moderator into our recoil equation, we begin to see certain types of scope mount that will inevitably shoot loose (EAW swing offs are very prone to this) and we begin to see that certain types of reticle and or scope cannot stand the forces induced.

I know that scope manufacturers subject test models of each kind of scope that they build to a certain recoil test, they have to do this to achieve the shock proof claim,( this is why some scopes claim a .50cal recoil proof) however as far as i know, hardly any of the manufacturers put a moderated rifle inton this equasion.
you can put that swarovski on a heavey recoiling rifle, it will probably stand up to a 50 cal rifle, but add a moderator into the equasion and we end up shaking the scope internals back and forth like a rag doll, and something ultimately has to give..

sorry for teh drawn out reply, hope it was understandable.
Pete L


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[TD="class: row, align: center"]Big Phil

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Re: Broken Swarovski 6x42
Pete L, wow mate that is some reply, glad I am only a truck driver and not a physisist of some kind. Taking on board your info as making a lot of sense, which scopes use the glass etched reticule, at the price they are, zeiss spring to mind maybe. Keep up the excellent posts Pete, most informative. ... Phil*

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Calm or unflinching in face of trouble, defeat, or loss. May God defend me from my friends; I can defend myself from my enemies.

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[TD="class: row, align: center"]nabs

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Re: Broken Swarovski 6x42
Robin,
Ive no wish to provoke an argument.
If you put a moderator (or add any mass) to a rifle.This will reduce the recoil.
regards
nabs


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[TD="class: row, align: center"]BobbD

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:53 pm
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Re: Broken Swarovski 6x42
Pete Lincoln, that must be the best reply to a question I have read on any site. Now I have a little misfire on my land rover I was hoping you could shed some light on.
Keep up the good posts.
ATB Bob


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[TD="class: row, align: center"]PeteLincoln

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Re: Broken Swarovski 6x42
Nabs, yes, well sort of, adding weight, or a moderator or muzzle break to a rifle reduces FELT or PERCIEVED recoil. But the momentum still exists.

with a moderator or muzzlebreak the rearward momentum of the rifle is counteracted by the forward force of the expelled propellant gasses acting on the surfaces of the moderator or muzzle break.

on an un moderated rifle, the rearward momentum of the rifle is equal to the forward momentum of the bullet, we just have to take into account the difference in weight between the two.
what i'm saying is that if it where possible to fire a 180gr bullet out of a rifle weighing 180gr, then the rifle would travel rearward at the same velocity as the bullet travels forward.
A rifle of course has far more weight or mass than a bullet, hence it travels rearward with less velocity but with the same momentum.

the heavier the weight of the rifle, the less the rearward velocity and the lower the felt recoil.

when we add a muzzlebreak or moderator, we end up with a double peak, and the 2 peaks are in opposite directions both occur within milliseconds. and the G forces induced are enormouse and very violent. even if a moderated rifle appears to be mildly mannered, the G forces or more importantly the transfer of momentum from one direction to anothern is the thing that breaks the reticles,

am i still making sense?

Pete


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[TD="class: row, align: center"]Robin Varley

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Re: Broken Swarovski 6x42
Pete.
You are making perfect sense. I realise that with the moderator fitted there is perceivably less recoil. But obviously the recoil and associated vibrations must go somewhere.

The thing that does surprise me, is that Swarovski use wire reticles, rather than an etched lens, as other makers do.
I will keep you informed of the outcome of this third repair. But whatever happens, I will not be putting the Swarovski back onto my .243



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Thanks for that McKenzie.
My mate that had the problem with the optilocks also had a swarovski 6x42 scope on top.
After he got the mounts fixed the reticle broke in his scope.
It was repaired under warranty though.
I have a few other mates that have also had scope failures. Two were zeiss and one was a S&B,
They were all using mods on their rifles. All scopes were repaired under warranty.
 
No Problem apart from having to file down part of the Base in order for it to fit a rifle it was designed to fit?
Thats what i thought, the instructions said that the recoil pin should not protrude from the bottom of the base more then one milimetre it was four and hence positioned the base above the dovetail not allowing it to slide on.

Ian.
 
Step 24: completely forget that, now, (as the scope turrets kindly point out), 1 click really does equal 1 cm.
Step 25: adjust scope 'a great many' clicks down.
Step 26: fire a shot. In horror realise that it has gone 2 inches low.

Oh yes - how true this rings... Unlike the gong target at the time.
 
First, remove the perfectly effective scope and cheap but effective mounts from your rifle.
1. Source an excellent replacement scope and realise it's a different tube diameter
2. Do the right thing by your Finnish rifle and decide on Optilock mounts
3. Make a semi-calculated but ultimately wild stab in the dark at the right height for the rings for your replacement scope's different objective lense diameter
4. Wonder momentarily at why Sako decided to saw a perfectly good mount in half and fasten the rings to the bases with a floating fit
5. Work out a way to assemble the rig loosely to get crosshair alignment, eye relief and recoil lug placement correct before nipping it up
6. Fail to work out a way to achieve the above
7. Work out which bolts to apply Loctite to
8. Undo everything you've just applied the above to because when you tightened the rear scope clamp it pulled the crosshairs to the right/left/right again/ left again (repeat ad infinitum)
9. Get the clamps set right, then realise you need to undo the bases to Loctite the unnecessarily-sawn-in-half rings to prevent the effing scope leaping off the effing rifle
10. Tighten up
11. Peer through a scope picture that looks like a periscope on a rolling sea
12. Sprinkle with vinegar, season with freshly ground black pepper and toss it in the bin as good for nothing (with apologies to Dr Johnson and none whatsoever to the vodka-soused lunatic who whiled away a Scandinavian winter deciding how much fun it would be allowing everyone to spend six months of darkness fitting a single telescopic sight)
13. As long as the deer lean to the right, they don't stand a chance.
Brilliant.~Muir
 
From what I understand, this is quite well known with mods: they can create something like a reflected shock wave that moves along the barrel in the opposite direction to the usual recoil. This can cause problems for scopes, and (as I understand) is why some scope manufacturers won't honour a warranty if used on a rifle with a mod.


I destroyed a S&B 4-12x44 with one shot of a moderated 300wm. snapped the wire reticule right at the centre upright
Previously this scope sat on an unmoderated .270 that probably shot over 1000 rounds in its lifetime

cost me £300 to get it replaced with a glass etched reticule
 
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