The History of Firearms Law - boring but revealing

kes

Well-Known Member
MODERN POLICY DEVELOPMENT

38. In December 1970, HM Chief Inspector of Constabulary, Sir John McKay, was formally asked to review the current law on firearms. He set up a working group consisting of chief officers of police, Scottish Office and Home Office officials. Though there were some meetings of sub groups with representatives of shooting organisations, there was no real consultation and the entire proceedings were confidential.

39. Although the study was formally authorised in December 1970, preparatory work must have been going on for at least a year prior to that because the Staff Officer to HM Chief Inspector of Constabulary visited Cambridge in the autumn of 1969 seeking information about research being conducted by a senior police officer and offering to share available information. He was briefed on the progress of the research and when it became clear that the study raised doubts about the effectiveness and efficiency of the system all contact was cut off and no liaison took place. The researcher concluded that the Working Party was not interested in information which did not conform to its pre-determined results.

For those who wonder why we are, where we are, today, and for those orgs who seek to be represented at meetings with Police, I advise a quick read below.
The full reference is at;
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmchaff/95/95ap25.htm



40. The McKay report was produced in September 1972, but has never been made public. It is known, however, that the first of 70 conclusions reached in a summary of the report was that a reduction in the number of firearms in private hands was a desirable end in itself. The report contained no evidence to justify this conclusion.

41. The McKay report is also known to have recommended that shotguns be placed under the same controls as rifles and pistols so that there would be a reduction in the number of shotguns in private hands. It asserted, without supportive evidence, that this step would reduce the number of shotguns in unauthorised hands and that, in the long term would make it more difficult for criminals to obtain shotguns. Other recommendations were vaguely worded, but all seek further restrictions on firearms of every class and further powers for the police. The fact that this report was never published and never made available for debate raises serious doubts about the intentions of those involved.

42. In May 1973, the Home Office produced a consultative document (a Green Paper), "The Control of Firearms in Great Britain" (Cmnd 5297) which was a very much watered down version of the McKay report without some of the more extreme statements. The primary aim expressed in the McKay Report was not included in the Green Paper nor were other proposals which the Home Office, itself heavily involved in the McKay Working Party, must have seen as politically unacceptable even if desirable for their own purposes. The proposals set out in the Green
 
House of Commons - Home Affairs - Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence

The late Colin Greenwood's submission to the Controls over Firearms Select Committee in 1999 or so?

His writing in Guns Review, often under the pseudonym 'Cadmus', inspired my first forays into talking to MP about firearms laws, in the immediate wake of the murders in Hungerford.

As an aside, I don't find the submission boring at all. In any case, boring or not, it should be compulsory reading for FAC-holders in these trying times. Without a grasp of the history of firearms control, and the roles variously of governments, Home Office and Police over the last 100years or so one might be apt to misunderstand what's going on at the moment and to repeat mistakes of the past.

Bill Harriman's obituary of him is here Colin Greenwood 1931-2017 - BASC and is worth a read - for a number of reasons.
 
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I remember reading about the McKay report in the early 80's. I recall thinking back then that the writing was on the wall.
It's strange thing to think that this country had no real firearms restrictions (excepting the 1903 Pistols Act) until 1920.
 
It is even more interesting to note that the resultant legislation was to try and avoid and armed insurrection. Even more interesting than that is that the police are still using this unjustified, unpublished, ignorant report despite knowing it was illiterate rubbish then and the need for it has diminished to vanishing point as a result of subsequent legislation.
 
Thanks for the links Dalua, I shot in my teens (70's), following on from my dad and grandad who both shot competitively in the forces and in civilian life. In my 20's a different side of life kicked in that didn't leave much time for recreational shooting. I re-applied in my 50's and for FA & SG certs and I'm now packing in as much shooting of any type as I can. I find the history and development of UK civilian firearms legislation fascinating but bizarre.
 
The statement in the report "a reduction in the number of firearms in private hands is a desirable end in itself." is something i have often pondered on; particularly so when there is no valid argument to support it. I wonder how many senior officials in the police and government held that view and i wonder if they still do.
One must be careful however in discussing such things as this openly. These days it could be regarded as seditious and result in unintended consequences.
 
The statement in the report "a reduction in the number of firearms in private hands is a desirable end in itself." is something i have often pondered on; particularly so when there is no valid argument to support it. I wonder how many senior officials in the police and government held that view and i wonder if they still do.
One must be careful however in discussing such things as this openly. These days it could be regarded as seditious and result in unintended consequences.
At that time the powers that be had a possible reason after WW1. They thought perhaps Britain may do the same as Russia as we headed for depression. So it made sense to remove or make it harder for any private person to have a rifle.
 
At that time the powers that be had a possible reason after WW1. They thought perhaps Britain may do the same as Russia as we headed for depression. So it made sense to remove or make it harder for any private person to have a rifle.

It is hard to see how they were running so scared but it absolutely confirms that the police and the government (civil servants) have an unwritten and unpublicised policy wrt firearms which both share and it is also clear that the police still regard that joint policy as valid, although we are now 50 years into the future.
So much for intelligence led policing - oxymoron.
 
MODERN POLICY DEVELOPMENT

38. In December 1970, HM Chief Inspector of Constabulary, Sir John McKay, was formally asked to review the current law on firearms. He set up a working group consisting of chief officers of police, Scottish Office and Home Office officials. Though there were some meetings of sub groups with representatives of shooting organisations, there was no real consultation and the entire proceedings were confidential.

39. Although the study was formally authorised in December 1970, preparatory work must have been going on for at least a year prior to that because the Staff Officer to HM Chief Inspector of Constabulary visited Cambridge in the autumn of 1969 seeking information about research being conducted by a senior police officer and offering to share available information. He was briefed on the progress of the research and when it became clear that the study raised doubts about the effectiveness and efficiency of the system all contact was cut off and no liaison took place. The researcher concluded that the Working Party was not interested in information which did not conform to its pre-determined results.

For those who wonder why we are, where we are, today, and for those orgs who seek to be represented at meetings with Police, I advise a quick read below.
The full reference is at;
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmchaff/95/95ap25.htm



40. The McKay report was produced in September 1972, but has never been made public. It is known, however, that the first of 70 conclusions reached in a summary of the report was that a reduction in the number of firearms in private hands was a desirable end in itself. The report contained no evidence to justify this conclusion.

41. The McKay report is also known to have recommended that shotguns be placed under the same controls as rifles and pistols so that there would be a reduction in the number of shotguns in private hands. It asserted, without supportive evidence, that this step would reduce the number of shotguns in unauthorised hands and that, in the long term would make it more difficult for criminals to obtain shotguns. Other recommendations were vaguely worded, but all seek further restrictions on firearms of every class and further powers for the police. The fact that this report was never published and never made available for debate raises serious doubts about the intentions of those involved.

42. In May 1973, the Home Office produced a consultative document (a Green Paper), "The Control of Firearms in Great Britain" (Cmnd 5297) which was a very much watered down version of the McKay report without some of the more extreme statements. The primary aim expressed in the McKay Report was not included in the Green Paper nor were other proposals which the Home Office, itself heavily involved in the McKay Working Party, must have seen as politically unacceptable even if desirable for their own purposes. The proposals set out in the Green
I still have my copy of the Green Paper, unsurprisingly those of its proposals that have passed into law appear to have had no impact on the unlawful use of firearms.
 
It is even more interesting to note that the resultant legislation was to try and avoid and armed insurrection. Even more interesting than that is that the police are still using this unjustified, unpublished, ignorant report despite knowing it was illiterate rubbish then and the need for it has diminished to vanishing point as a result of subsequent legislation.
@kes could you please clarify which of the 43 police forces in England and Wales are “using this unjustified, unpublished, ignorant report”?
I’ve worked in Firearms Licensing in two police forces and neither of them do.
Do you have any evidence for this remark?
Or are you just talking weapons grade b#llocks?
 
@kes could you please clarify which of the 43 police forces in England and Wales are “using this unjustified, unpublished, ignorant report”?
I’ve worked in Firearms Licensing in two police forces and neither of them do.
Do you have any evidence for this remark?
Or are you just talking weapons grade b#llocks?
He hasn't been on the site for some time, 18 months or so...
 
You are where you are.....I think in large measure to the great war and the aftermath of it.Revolution and unrest on the Continent was the trigger for severe firearms restrictions in the UK.....I am no historian nor scholar but that has always seemed to me what spelled the end of the casual ownership of arms.
 
It does seem that the real reasons Governments look to limit the private ownership of firearms is 1) it helps with a particular constituency at election time, and 2) they are contemplating doing things that would make people want to shoot at them.
Just like taxes, it is very rare to see public control legislation wound back. As I understand it, income tax was introduced in 1799 by Mr Pitt to finance the Napoleonic wars - and I'm fairly sure that one is won and done.
 
At that time the powers that be had a possible reason after WW1. They thought perhaps Britain may do the same as Russia as we headed for depression. So it made sense to remove or make it harder for any private person to have a rifle.
It wasn’t so much a question of thinking or being scared, the British Authorities in the early post WW1 period were dealing with the aftermath of the Irish Revolution. Ireland had for centuries been under the British crown and rule. During the 1800’s it had been granted “Home Rule” whereby it had its own parliament to run day to day affairs of Ireland. It was still very much part of Great Britain. Home Rule was used quite a bit throughout the British Empire giving similar powers to the local Government as the Scottish government has under devolution or a state in Germany does, but probably a bit less than a State in the US.

The Easter Rising of 2016 kicked things off. This was a full on insurrection using military weapons (albeit somewhat obsolete) with a capture of Dublins Post office, followed by a proper military engagement including artillery.

There then followed a nasty little gorilla war in which (according to Wiki) the British lost 900 soldiers with a total death toll of 2,500.

At that point on time Britain and Ireland were much closer than they are today with Dublin being really considered as one of Britains great cities. The Easter rising would as much of a shock to the British people and state as if it had happened in Glasgow or Cardiff or Manchester. In terms of soldiers killed, more British soldiers were killed than we lost in Iraq abd Afganisthan.

The Irish Free State was created in 1922 giving a much greater control to the Irish Parliament - it was a Dominian alongside Canada Australia and South Africa, but still under the British crown. There then followed a nasty little civil war that rumbled on for the next decade.

The amount of weaponary that was available to the insurection numbered in the thousands with plenty of ammo (45,000 rounds in one shipment). Some where early 1880 single shot black powder bolt actions, but WW1 bolt actions widely used. And things the Mauser C96 automatic pistol, whilst expensive, were readily available at a sporting emporium.

An interesting couple of articles on the sorts of weapons being used



Meanwhile the British were having a few issues in other parts of its Empire. The RAF and troops were deployed to Iraq and Afganisthan, and meanwhile in India the British Indian Army had been involved in Amritsar Massacre (1919) where the British India Army opened fire on a large protest against British rule causing 1500 deaths. This to huge upset and distrust of British rule.

So that the powers that be that drafted the basis of Firearms Act. They weren’t a wee bit fearful of revolutionary activities, rather they were responding to direct revolutionary activities within the country.

At that point in time the majority of men had direct military experience and knew how to use firearms. And there were plenty who had views opposite to that of the crown and the establishment. Add easy access to appropriate weapons and such uprisings could easily have happened in England.
 
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