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Uncle f

Uncle f

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Ok so following on from the thread posted by Chasey requiring x2 level 2cert stalkers I thought I would start a new thread with regards to training and certs etc. I appreciate its been done to death over time but following Natural Englands decision of late with regards to General licences I want to offer my take on it and I would be interested in everyones opinion. So starting with me I have Both level 1 and level 2, First aid and forestry recently obtained, Lantra advanced deer management, Atv, BASC safety officer course, Lantra level one shotgun coach.
Thats it for the shooting related certs. I also have some other professional qualifications that i need for work on site such as RSPH award in pest management, City in Guilds use of phostoxin, CPCS use of excavators, NPTC PA1 PA2 PA6 use of herbicides and pesticides. Now here is my point my work cert I need otherwise I cannot purchase some of the products I use and also I cannot get onto sites. Also i need these for my public liability policy etc. Now I am aware that some people on here think that level 1 and 2 etc are just a means to get ground, permissions etc and to a point that is correct. I done my shooting related certs for two reasons firstly to learn more and better my self as an individual, and secondly once gained they will open up more and more opportunities for me get permissions etc. Both of those statements are true 100%. I also agree that experience is just as important if not more than qualifications. BUT i feel more and more now we are having as a community be it stalking, game, wildfowling, rough, target, foxing etc to explain ourselves in more detail and having to jump through more hoops to carry doing what many of us have been doing for many years. The authorities will not just come and overnight and ban all forms of shooting (as much as some would like) as there would be bedlam, but what they will do is make it harder for us to carry out the tasks legally, such as the general licence debarcle raging now. Effectively they will creep in conditions and things we need to adhere to via the back door in the hope possibly that some of us go "sod this too much aggro" and bin the guns and they have effectively won that little battle by default. Is this right and fair? absolutely not but that is what is happening. People don't like the fact we have guns (rifles, shotguns etc) so they make is so hard to move legally in the hope that some will just give them up. Another way in which this may be forced via default is groups that provide insurance BASC,CA, BDS etc are happy to insure currently but what happens when (and they will in time) say you need to have x and y for the insurance policy to be valid, so some landowners may not insist on certain certs but what they should all insist on is comprehensive insurance cover and I don't know any permissions that don't insist on insurance for the individual(s) perhaps some out there will enlighten me. If people do stalk, shoot without adequate insurance they are mad and irresponsible IMHO. So here is another way in which the powers that be will force this stuff through without actually saying "you can't shoot"

It's happening already and will continue to happen more and more i'm sure. For those that think gaining a qualification is just a money spinner then it may well be but every course and exam i've been on i've learned something new so surely knowledge is power and can only be a good thing.

For me its something to be embraced and can only be good so long as its proportionate to the activity being undertaken

Regards Steve
 
Uncle f said:
:popcorn:
Click to expand...


All what I learnt was from the age of 12....so rewind 46 years ( I have said this before) sitting quietly by a rabbit warren waiting for something to bolt, missing pop hols digging out ferrets....starting out on a springier, .410, 20 single 12 .22lr. gutting rabbits pheasants cod, catching dabs on low tide............is far beyond the scope of made to measure shooters these days.

Tim.243
 
Uncle f said:
Ok so following on from the thread posted by Chasey requiring x2 level 2cert stalkers I thought I would start a new thread with regards to training and certs etc. I appreciate its been done to death over time but following Natural Englands decision of late with regards to General licences I want to offer my take on it and I would be interested in everyones opinion. So starting with me I have Both level 1 and level 2, First aid and forestry recently obtained, Lantra advanced deer management, Atv, BASC safety officer course, Lantra level one shotgun coach.
Thats it for the shooting related certs. I also have some other professional qualifications that i need for work on site such as RSPH award in pest management, City in Guilds use of phostoxin, CPCS use of excavators, NPTC PA1 PA2 PA6 use of herbicides and pesticides. Now here is my point my work cert I need otherwise I cannot purchase some of the products I use and also I cannot get onto sites. Also i need these for my public liability policy etc. Now I am aware that some people on here think that level 1 and 2 etc are just a means to get ground, permissions etc and to a point that is correct. I done my shooting related certs for two reasons firstly to learn more and better my self as an individual, and secondly once gained they will open up more and more opportunities for me get permissions etc. Both of those statements are true 100%. I also agree that experience is just as important if not more than qualifications. BUT i feel more and more now we are having as a community be it stalking, game, wildfowling, rough, target, foxing etc to explain ourselves in more detail and having to jump through more hoops to carry doing what many of us have been doing for many years. The authorities will not just come and overnight and ban all forms of shooting (as much as some would like) as there would be bedlam, but what they will do is make it harder for us to carry out the tasks legally, such as the general licence debarcle raging now. Effectively they will creep in conditions and things we need to adhere to via the back door in the hope possibly that some of us go "sod this too much aggro" and bin the guns and they have effectively won that little battle by default. Is this right and fair? absolutely not but that is what is happening. People don't like the fact we have guns (rifles, shotguns etc) so they make is so hard to move legally in the hope that some will just give them up. Another way in which this may be forced via default is groups that provide insurance BASC,CA, BDS etc are happy to insure currently but what happens when (and they will in time) say you need to have x and y for the insurance policy to be valid, so some landowners may not insist on certain certs but what they should all insist on is comprehensive insurance cover and I don't know any permissions that don't insist on insurance for the individual(s) perhaps some out there will enlighten me. If people do stalk, shoot without adequate insurance they are mad and irresponsible IMHO. So here is another way in which the powers that be will force this stuff through without actually saying "you can't shoot"

It's happening already and will continue to happen more and more i'm sure. For those that think gaining a qualification is just a money spinner then it may well be but every course and exam i've been on i've learned something new so surely knowledge is power and can only be a good thing.

For me its something to be embraced and can only be good so long as its proportionate to the activity being undertaken

Regards Steve
Click to expand...
Death by a Thousand cuts.:old:
 
I agree completely but that cannot be demonstrated to someone or some organisation miles away that easy. Im sure ill get many replies like yours but the fact is most who need to care i e landowners, Government agencies etc don't.
Its not right but its the way it is
 
Well, I do agree to a large extent. I came to the stalking party late, did not have (until recently) access to land or experienced mentors/friends/family who were able to demonstrate the correct ways of doing things. I'm very fortunate to now have a very competent group who are able to mentor me through the whole thing.
But without this, and to start off, I launched into the DSC 1. Learnt a lot, more than I expected and that got me a foothold. It's hard for a 'late starter' to get into it, so quals actually make things possible for some. I don't have years of experience growing up with hunting, stalking, fishing etc and therefore no one can vouch for me or knows my pedigree. What other metric can a prospective permission granter hope to have then? I do appreciate that yes, it's another piece of paper with money attached to it, that leads to more pieces of paper and more money (EFAW+F, DSC2, etc etc). But it then builds up a pathology of learning, dedication and actual competency. Granted, where there is money and a qual involved, there will always be corruption and a 'crash course' that teaches the answers to the questions, rather than teaching the behaviour.
I think modern day it is unavoidable and at least makes one measureable and accountable, while also making it accessible to those who would not have had the exposure to training or being overseen during their formative years.
 
I'm a member of new rifle club with a constitution based on promoting not just so-called sporting rifle but training in and promotion of Best Practice deer management.

We just need to get our act together and rekindle enthusiasm for moving things forward and beyond a couple of shooting competitions per year. But in addition to commitment from all involved the club needs certain resources that as of writing escape us but hopefully that will change as the membership expands and word of our endeavours reaches a wider audience!

K
 
The post was interesting, and looking at that conversation as someone who works in the training industry. There will always be a mixture of opinions, those who look down the track and see whats coming and get themselves in a position to future proof themselves and there are those whom don't believe in any additional training and that it should be resisted so that it doesn't become the norm.

I personally enjoy learning and I enjoy teaching, I believe that every day is a day at school, everyone no matter what they do should look into some form of CPD, (Continuous Professional Development) this helps to ensure that they are up to date with new ideas, processes, standards, best practice or other developments in their chosen field for either work or hobbies.

Personally I believe that being able to prove that you have both understanding, ability and competence in what ever you do is vital to being professional. The Health & safety industry is certainly proof where education, regulations and changes in practice has dramatically reduced injuries and fatalities over the years so there is proof in the pudding. Has it made it a minefield to do anything, does it take longer! Maybe but the amount of times you hear "but we've always done it like that" is quite frightening.

The other issue that will come around these days after an accident is whom was at fault?

The land owner, due diligence before allowing the shooter on his land?

The shooter, was he or she trained, proficient, experienced?

When your defense is that you are competent and experienced or that you did carry out checks on the shooter before hand, any lawyer is going to say "Prove It"! and that is where certification and meeting a recognized standard set out by industry professionals does matter.

The question comes down to should it be compulsory or voluntary? Look at the driving license in 1934, what started out as voluntary it eventually become requirement at later down the line.
 
All training is amazing and makes you a better stalker and a person ..... isn’t that the accepted soundbite ? See boys I’ve taken my brain out and conformed !
 
Dear god I would take up golf if I had to do all that.

Personally DSC1 is worth the effort for people wanting to get into the sport with no background.

DSC2 on the other hand adds nothing. No training element. Left to own devices to acquire "the competence" and then for some reason we are expected to illustrate it with all the components of 3 successful stalks. Why, I only had to pass Higher Maths once, I didn't have to repeat the damn thing.

There is no emphasis on the individual components. Not hard to envisage an alternative approach.
A day on the range with an emphasis on improving shooting skills and knowledge complete with 'test'.
Multiple stalks on one day without the need to shoot. On the ground discussion, mentoring and assessment of competence ie got into a position to shoot or not.
One shot, gralloch etc. You can do it or you can't.

I had that discussion with one of the "training providers". Not interested. Why would they be. They think there is more money in the existing approach and its easier for them. They are not really educators, just stalkers looking to make an extra £.

But I think they are wrong. More people would participate if there was an element of continuing training so less £ per person (maybe) but more people. Didn't expect anything else really.

So have not done DSC2 and will never do it. Once you have the competence who cares about the cert unless someone is forcing you to have it to get stalking. Not my situation.
 
jimbo1984 said:
Very true but I don’t think many stalkers help themselves by not being able to think ....
Click to expand...

Quite......those skills went when Dads/Mums stopped teaching their kids how to fix stuff.....circa 1990's which in-turn is repeated.

County shows are different with the young farmers, youngsters helping out on displays is a breath of fresh air...but only a very thing slice of the cake.
Last year a large group of D of E walkers got lost and marched through a flowering pea field.....
I cut them off asking why they went across instead of around the headland.....

:banghead:
Answers ranged from,
It is quicker to go across...
Didn't know it was a crop....
Sorry...
Shrugging of shoulders...
Silence..


Tim.243
 
So if those D of E young adults didn’t have any people to teach them the right and correct way I e parents mentors etc
How else would they be expected to learn I would suggest appropriate training would be a start. It would not provide all the answers but give them some basics
 
Uncle f said:
So if those D of E young adults didn’t have any people to teach them the right and correct way I e parents mentors etc
How else would they be expected to learn I would suggest appropriate training would be a start. It would not provide all the answers but give them some basics
Click to expand...
Nothing wrong with training but there is something VERY wrong with forced training and shoving it down people’s throats which has become the norm
 
Uncle f said:
So if those D of E young adults didn’t have any people to teach them the right and correct way I e parents mentors etc
How else would they be expected to learn I would suggest appropriate training would be a start. It would not provide all the answers but give them some basics
Click to expand...


I asked them was the brief to walk across a crop field....no was the answer. If it was an emergency well missing the foot path is not an emergency.

In my dive briefings in Egypt I would point to the L N ( lady navy ) name of the boat that was hung over the side as often 3 boats would be on one mooring line.
As qualified divers often didn't want to follow the guide, also if it was a real emergency then get help from any boat moored up,

NOT JOIN YOUR FRIENDS YOU SEE UNDERWATER AND GO TO THEIR BOAT FOR A ####ING COKE LOL

Tim.243
 
sadly the insurance companies/ forestry companies and every big company want training certs / insurance policies risk assessments and every bit of paper they can think of. and I cant see ot getting any easier
tom
 
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