Vets urging the govement to study the decline of foxes since hunting ban

[User00053]

Nothing to do with the rapid proliferation of thermal and night vision equipment then?

May be a factor but areas mentioned in post 54 gets attention using nv and thermal both scope and spotters in various combinations and a methodical regime through the year bar summer and as you would expect does a good job.
In addition a good number of snares are run where possible and no question they are the most effective on the numbers front no contest.

 

[mudman]

A retired keeper I talked to about the vermin control he used to do as a lad and young man, the tricks of the trade when setting snares and traps etc, surprised me by adding, well of course most of our vermin control was done from a small bottle, much easier, very effective, bloody dangerous if you got it wrong. I shouldn’t have been surprised, but that is how crows and magpies etc were kept at very low numbers, no doubt foxes too. He keepered a hunting estate, or at least an estate where the owner took great pleasure in hosting the hunt two or three times a season. The keeper would always have foxes but drew the line at allowing any litters on his ground, he just stopped his fox control once the birds were mature and the estate filled up quite quickly.

 

[Bo Diddley]

lack of effort on your behalf or comming in off a larger area that isnt shot etc ?

Definitely not a lack of effort on my behalf, just more foxes about in general.
40+ years ago I started to help the old boy out that did the keepering, I had a handy terrier and also ran a rabbiting dog, we would sort a couple of litters out each spring with the terrier, I was free to catch as many rabbits on the lamp as I wanted to and never spotted the number of foxes then that I do now, and as a keen youngster with ground to hunt my dog on I was out lamping any decent night in the winter. I just think that many of the smaller farm shoots that used to keep a few foxes down no longer bother with a shoot at all, it's these areas that are a refugee for foxes & deer, as we know nature abhors a vacuum and it is soon filled when you keep them down on your own ground. Norwich is full of foxes and has been for years, they are opportunists and take advantage of our wastefulness, wastefulness that decades ago we couldn't afford, but life is easy for us now and we discard too much food.

 

[Bowland blades]

Definitely not a lack of effort on my behalf, just more foxes about in general.
40+ years ago I started to help the old boy out that did the keepering, I had a handy terrier and also ran a rabbiting dog, we would sort a couple of litters out each spring with the terrier, I was free to catch as many rabbits on the lamp as I wanted to and never spotted the number of foxes then that I do now, and as a keen youngster with ground to hunt my dog on I was out lamping any decent night in the winter. I just think that many of the smaller farm shoots that used to keep a few foxes down no longer bother with a shoot at all, it's these areas that are a refugee for foxes & deer, as we know nature abhors a vacuum and it is soon filled when you keep them down on your own ground. Norwich is full of foxes and has been for years, they are opportunists and take advantage of our wastefulness, wastefulness that decades ago we couldn't afford, but life is easy for us now and we discard too much food.

Ok i know little to nothing about urban foxes , they are almost a different species as regards behaviour it seems

 

[User00053]

Some interesting accounts to be found in some areas of hunting baggers over 120 years ago due to lack of wild fox’s and accounts of people walking miles to view a dead fox as such a sight, plenty in that area for last 50 years or so.
As many will know bagged fox has no idea where he is and can provide an interesting hunt I am lead to believe.
Some other interesting data collated in welsh wales having once had numerous fox control societies keeping records and published by h g Lloyd in his work the red fox,he was a researcher for ministry of agriculture and surprising what work was done regarding rabies including tagging dispersal and general interesting foxy findings and population dynamics.
I do not support the hunting of bagged fox’s.

 

[Kai]

Gone are the days when you would walk miles with a heavy motorbike battery on your shoulder and you had to use fieldcraft to get close to a fox on the lamp today it’s drive around in a 4x4 or just sit in it and place an electric caller nearby then sit with the thermal or nightvison it’s just way to easy the fox hasn’t a chance ive got no problem with anyone shooting problem foxes but some are just shooting foxes by the dozen every night for fun

 

[Buchan]

You can look at this two ways. It's either a pro-hunting group of vets that are going to advocate the hunting ban being overturned to help the number of foxes get back on their feet (unlikely)
Or, it's a group of Packman cronies/ vet buddies that are putting their own spin on things to further erode traditional country life, hoping to turn the countryside into a playground for urbanites on their yearly trip to get some fresh air. Crazy world.

I can't read the letter as it's behind a paywall of the Evil that is the Torygraph. I suspect however that you are right and it is a letter from a pro-hunting group of vets.

 

[Bo Diddley]

Gone are the days when you would walk miles with a heavy motorbike battery on your shoulder and you had to use fieldcraft to get close to a fox on the lamp today it’s drive around in a 4x4 or just sit in it and place an electric caller nearby then sit with the thermal or nightvison it’s just way to easy the fox hasn’t a chance ive got no problem with anyone shooting problem foxes but some are just shooting foxes by the dozen every night for fun

True to a greater degree, especially about the modern fox shooting scene, which to be honest has become a hobby with all the whistles and bells for some folks, some of the YouTube stuff makes you wonder why they make such videos public, almost glorifying the destruction a bullet causes when it strikes with the thermal showing a shower of mincemeat flying in all directions.
But I just caught the tail end of the 70s early 80s and some folks were making a living of sorts selling fox pelts, they fetched 25 quid for a clean pelt in top nick, a few chaps might catch a dozen a night with the running dogs around poultry units ( Bernard Mathews, remember him ) my old bitch was pretty much just a rabbiting dog, she had a few foxes but not many.

 

[VSS]

I can't read the letter as it's behind a paywall of the Evil that is the Torygraph. I suspect however that you are right and it is a letter from a pro-hunting group of vets.

In which case, they're probably shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[Taff]

I doubt if it is a pro hunting group of vets, but the start of a ban on shooting foxes campaign , particularly at night,which has now become a moving target sport for some people, this will probably be preceded by a ban on shooting with thermals. Don,t expect much support in your campaign to prevent this from , target, pistol shooters or trail hunters, as you usually get what you sow.
The LACS has always stated its campaign to ban all field sports, would continue after the hunting ban.

 

[User00036]

I once read a book by an old estate keeper, could have been the turn of the century, in South Norfolk, a fox was sighted on an estate & keepers came from surrounding estates to try & get it, many were curious to see a fox, going back further to the 1830's, when fox hunting became popular, there were so few foxes around that they started to import them from Belgium so that they could hunt them. Georgian Edwardian & Victorian keepers were probably responsible for their demise, but that is not a given, maybe a fox was not so common. Going back to my childhood, most farmers kept free range poultry in the stubble after harvest, mobile chicken houses were everywhere, it wasn't until the early seventies that I first saw a fox, & our chickens started to get attacked. Saw my first Magpie in the late sixties, & that was in Suffolk.Never saw a Sparrowhawk or a Buzzard til the eighties, their demise wasn't from keepers it was organophosphates. Foxes were certainly not present in the numbers they are now, Just like Muntjac they started to colonise the cites, a safe sanctuary, I sqeaked them up in Stoke Newington, & Leeds, some came to the squeak, some didn't even know what a squeak was, would have done better rustling a Kebab wrapper. One thing is for sure, when I was a kid I saw much more wildlife, particularly ground nesting birds, coveys of grey partridge, fields black with peewits & plovers, yellowhammers skylarks etc the list goes on. Also saw many more barn owls, 3 pairs nested on this farm, saw more Harriers, even saw a Montagues Harrier, Honey Buzzards & Sea Eagles. And there were no keepers locally. On the great sporting estates round here, the Hare accounted for the biggest total, followed by Partridge & Snipe. To sum up, there may be decline in remoter rural areas of the fox, where control is practised, but it is actually getting it back to sensible/historic levels. There will always be a reservoir of numbers to top up from the towns & cities.

 

[User00053]

Was interesting that the import of darker larger fox’s took place by some and where it started, purely to improve native fox’s and sure we have all seen throw backs to those lines now in England for certain.
Anyone with a in depth interest in foxs should try and find a book called the red fox by h.g. Lloyd 1980, very interesting data published on work done in welsh wales over ten years or so.
Also interesting to note in said book the number of fox control societies that were operating with the majority in wales.

 

[Tim.243]

Was interesting that the import of darker larger fox’s took place by some and where it started, purely to improve native fox’s and sure we have all seen throw backs to those lines now in England for certain.
Anyone with a in depth interest in foxs should try and find a book called the red fox by h.g. Lloyd 1980, very interesting data published on work done in welsh wales over ten years or so.

Other data you might struggle to find is where vixens have had the snip (clean shaven patch) and a line of stitches on the belly. Shot a number of those over the years. Also under the white coat was a RSPCA uniform as my friend thought the bloke was fly tipping went around to the passenger side door of a transit with it full of caged foxes..

 

[User00053]

Other data you might struggle to find is where vixens have had the snip (clean shaven patch) and a line of stitches on the belly. Shot a number of those over the years. Also under the white coat was a RSPCA uniform as my friend thought the bloke was fly tipping went around to the passenger side door of a transit with it full of caged foxes..

Never got to bottom of who responsible but early eighties now and again silly numbers of fox’s with little sense of self preservation would in mid winter turn up, pure lamp fodder.
This went on for a year or two until bobbies investigating rural crime stopped a cattle wagon in early hours transporting foxs. Not uncommon in one area to kill fox’s now and again which had undergone surgery of some description.
Edit. Trusted friend reports fox’s still been dumped in similar fashion.

 

[Tim.243]

Never got to bottom of who responsible but early eighties now and again silly numbers of fox’s with little sense of self preservation would in mid winter turn up, pure lamp fodder.
This went on for a year or two until bobbies investigating rural crime stopped a cattle wagon in early hours transporting foxs. Not uncommon in one area to kill fox’s now and again which had undergone surgery of some description.
Edit. Trusted friend reports fox’s still been dumped in similar fashion.

I know you can't relocate grey squirrels as it is in the wildlife act but foxes are not on that list so that is how they get around it.. (I Think)

 

[levigsp]

Sorry but I may be getting a cynic in my old age, but this is total crap.
Are these vets paid by packham, the rspca, rspb etc? just another stick to beat Keepers with to stop vermin control.

 

[Warren79]

Certainly not a decline in my part of Hampshire, cant keep the numbers down!

 

[Border]

Or tax it!

No, that's the Norwegian way......

 

[User00053]

I know you can't relocate grey squirrels as it is in the wildlife act but foxes are not on that list so that is how they get around it.. (I Think)

Am sure Tim well intentioned people but bad move to release them where they did due to amount of serious fox control which was a shame.
Think it’s pretty accurate to say it’s likely there are more fox’s in England as a whole than ever before.

 

[Klenchblaize]

A retired keeper I talked to about the vermin control he used to do as a lad and young man, the tricks of the trade when setting snares and traps etc, surprised me by adding, well of course most of our vermin control was done from a small bottle, much easier, very effective, bloody dangerous if you got it wrong. I shouldn’t have been surprised, but that is how crows and magpies etc were kept at very low numbers, no doubt foxes too. He keepered a hunting estate, or at least an estate where the owner took great pleasure in hosting the hunt two or three times a season. The keeper would always have foxes but drew the line at allowing any litters on his ground, he just stopped his fox control once the birds were mature and the estate filled up quite quickly.

Sadly there are still estate workers that are happy to tug their forelocks in deference to their Paymaster prior to re-engaging in the indiscriminate killing/poisoning of any number of critters including raptors.

We need to show zero tolerance as a community when such is evidenced and focally condemn it where proven.

K