Voluntary Annual Assessment - Poll

Would you participate in such an assessment?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 12.7%
  • No

    Votes: 138 87.3%

  • Total voters
    158
So here’s a thing.
The Scottish government, 20yrs ago, introduce the Curriculum for Excellence which my daughter was the first to go through.
This was to try and do away with the exam scenario - which this in effect would be, by trying to prove your capability in a defined situation.

My trail on the shooting Curriculum for Excellence would be my targets from paper punching and my larder record.
No further examination required.
 
Interesting to skim over all 11 pages...

I'll happily predict that if we don't create a skills assessment one will be placed upon us and I don't think it will create a worse situation than at present with FAC applications - frankly it can't get much worse. I agree with the principle of annual skills testing but I don't quite agree with the OP tiered approach as I'm not sure it adds much if the skills test is good enough. The current level 1 shoot is inadequate (only 4 real shots in the target) so it needs to go back to the 3 into the 4 inch and the rest into the deer. To me the only real issue is the lack of availability of locations do do a test as I know from our range days how far some folk travel. That, to me is the only real barrier.

And should we take such tests before shooting any live quarry - yes. The rat deserves the same level of care over a humane kill as does a deer, both are sentient.
 
I have no doubt you are passionate about deer welfare, but plenty of others here are too.

Whilst your plan is undoubtedly written from the heart, any option that is entirely dependent upon volunteers has to get buy-in, otherwise it will never get off the ground. You might personally feel you have the perfect plan, but how will you ever see it come to fruition if you can't bring the stalking community with you? Telling everyone how crap we all are, how we don't practice enough, and how we don't care about deer welfare as much as you do, is hardly a strategy that is going to win you many converts!

You recognised that, with members of the Stalking Directory, you have the opportunity here to tap into a vast fund of knowledge and experience. You asked for people's thoughts, which they given. It can be disheartening to realise that others don't equally share your passion, but that's life!

The fact that the majority of respondees may not agree with your initial proposal isn't a reason to throw in the towel. There have been a number of constructive observations made as to how you might improve both the efficacy of the course itself and its attractiveness in general. So if your passion really is to improve deer welfare, and you feel some type of course aimed at improving people's shooting skills is the way to achieve it, then why not take those comments on board and come back with another iteration?

FWIW my suggestions would be:
  1. Drop the idea of it being an assessment, as the word itself is toxic. An assessment implies a pass/fail result, and failure implies negative consequences. You have not explained in detail what would happen if someone failed, but consider that you would potentially then be responsible for them losing their stalking and/or their FAC. Who is ever going to volunteer for a course where that is the potential outcome? Whilst you might be able to claim the moral highground, it immediately makes the whole concept of your course a non-starter.
  2. If you want people to attend your course, you have to make it sufficiently attractive that people are willing to invest their time, effort and money into taking it. If it is not to be mandatory, which you insist is not the aim, then you need to improve audience buy-in. In general the reasons for attending a training course are either compulsion or enjoyment. If the former isn't an option then you need to position your course as something aspirational - "Learn how to improve your stalking efficiency and get more deer in the larder." Who wouldn't want to do that?
  3. Drop the whole Gold, Silver, Bronze concept, unless you aim to either to sell coloured badges or create additional levels in the future to encourage return attendees. Grading stalkers is always going to be divisive, and who wants to attend a course where the outcome is going to encourage a version of Stalking Top Trumps? From a welfare perspective it is also meaningless - either you want attendees to wound less deer or you don't.
  4. Don't rely on outside organisations to support you, or sign off on your course. Getting them all aligned and signed up would be a lifetime's task, and for what end? Better to put in place a type of course that they then aspire to delivering - imitation is the best form of flattery.
  5. Start small. As others have pointed out, there is insufficient infrastructure in place to support a national scheme. Also the idea that an organisation made up purely of volunteers can establish and run a new national standard that would be recognised by landowners, the police, and other establishments alike is very wishful thinking. Why start with a goal that is unachievable? Instead put something together that others aspire to replicate - that way it will grow naturally.
  6. Don't put the central focus on accuracy, unless you want to limit your audience to wannabe snipers. You might feel accuracy is the be-all-and-end-all, but the effect it has is to automatically make your course sound competitive and judgemental. If I wanted to go on an Expert Marksman course I'd do it outside of any supposed assessment. Also whilst I have been asked by landowners about DSC1 and DSC2, as the information is useful to them when applying for forestry grants, I have never been asked about my shooting accuracy. Landowners are neither experienced nor interested enough to care.
  7. Don't use "regular" targets - see my Post #129 for some examples of what might make your course more realistic and useful. They would also make it different, which it needs to be if it's going to attract an audience.
Don't lose heart, but treat the feedback you've received as another part of the learning experience. We need people to put their heads above the parapet and make suggestions for improvement, so well done for caring enough to do so. :tiphat:
Thank you for the detailed comments, I can't say I agree with all of them but there are some honest suggestions which I've reflected upon.

The ultimate feeling I'm getting at this point is it's not really worth attempting setting up anything like this. As you correctly say the two drivers are compulsion and aspiration, I had hoped people would aspire to prove competency on a regular basis in order to show diligence and care, highlighting the community in the best light. Further to that having the personal benefit of being able to present to landowners or interested parties their continued competency, evidently I was wrong here.

I am hesitant to set up what will become another tuition day, as I have seen first hand how poorly marksmanship tuition days go down amongst the community. I was hoping this might be a little different as there could be a physical perceived benefit/outcome at the end, rather than the intangible 'improvement of skills' that so many seem unwilling to invest into, shown by aforementioned lack of attendance of such events.

Regarding the use of various targets, I agree there is benefit to learning where to place a bullet when sections of a deer are limited by cover or angle. Unfortunately I don't believe until the marksmanship standard overall has improved that this is something that could be trained on a range. IMO accuracy would prove prohibitive to the key learning points in the majority of cases as it would be difficult to differentiate shot placement error with grouping size.

I appreciate the advice regarding the feedback. If I'm honest a lot of it came personal and I took it as such, particularly when I'm getting accused of trying to destroy the sport, keep others from entering, being another block in the way, gain personal profit from it etc etc when in reality all I want to do is to help improve standards and reduce the levels of wounding/misses it does grate. I think people need to remember not everyone has an ulterior motive.

Anyhow, as mentioned I'm going to draw a line under this idea now, it's evident there unfortunately isn't the support for it.


Ben
 
Sorry Buchan testing before shooting a rat. What rubbish.
Why? In minimising pain, what's the difference (accepting that if you shoot a rat with a .222, it will be jam pretty much from nose to bum)?
Regardless of the species a humane ie near instant kill is what is needed - and what more on here would agree with.

And to just add to the discussion, reflecting whilst quietly sorting brass (possibly, but only just, more fun than sorting nuts and bolts for the MG) everyone shooting deer should be capable of hitting a 2 inch target consistently at 100 yards ("The Spot of Doom"). Doing this allows for a bit of inconsistency and still hitting a 4" or 7" depending on species and attaining a humane kill.
 
I agree it doesn't make you competent in itself, hence events such as this have a place?

I would refer you to this study regarding incidents though - surely we can all agree this percentage wounded/missed is too high and anything we can do to lower that is a good thing, especially something as easy as this?

Factors Associated with Shooting Accuracy and Wounding Rate of Four Managed Wild Deer Species in the UK, Based on Anonymous Field Records from Deer Stalkers
they suggest more practice under realistic conditions. You’re suggesting testing under testing conditions. Interesting they didnt mention misses due to pressure imparted on the shooter.
 
The point being that if you have to take a accuracy test to shoot one species of animal, you should take a relevant test to shoot others be they deer, rabbits or rats.
Yes, but refining it a bit, it would be a reasonable assumption someone capable of hitting 2" at 100 with centre fire should be capable of hitting 10p at 20yards so it would be fair to extrapolate to smaller quarry, but not up from smaller to larger at greater distances.
 
Why? In minimising pain, what's the difference (accepting that if you shoot a rat with a .222, it will be jam pretty much from nose to bum)?
Regardless of the species a humane ie near instant kill is what is needed - and what more on here would agree with.

And to just add to the discussion, reflecting whilst quietly sorting brass (possibly, but only just, more fun than sorting nuts and bolts for the MG) everyone shooting deer should be capable of hitting a 2 inch target consistently at 100 yards ("The Spot of Doom"). Doing this allows for a bit of inconsistency and still hitting a 4" or 7" depending on species and attaining a humane kill.
To what extent do you allow for the width of the wound channel caused by expanding bullets in this?
 
One item I would remove from any such voluntary system is the grading, you either make the grade judged to be sufficient / proficient, or you don't ..... Any shooting of live quarry cannot rely on a grade .... either you make the parameter or fail & consider going back into training.
Or reduce the distance at which we shoot. I think this is what most of us do when we go through times when for one reason or another we feel less confident.
this is the problem i have with target shooting, it makes some people have unreal confidence, in less than ideal conditions, ie not of a bench, prone, bipod, sand bags etc and super ego’s
 
From what I’ve heard on here,there is a lot of willy waving happens in the stalking world.
2 threads spring to mind, one is the deer syndicate advertised, due to these supposedly experienced sniper stalkers failing the shooting test, then a complete lack of people stepping forward for it…..

Then Tim’s thread talking about the 4-5inch scale …..

Then my very own dsc1 shooting assessment where just over 50% failed, including the bloke next to me who was actually shooting my target (in haunch) instead of his own….
Most these guys have revelled all week in saying how ‘expert’ they were, how many thousands of deer they grassed every week…man you should have heard the excuses start as the test progressed.

I am starting to think most of the refusal to do things like this that would actually put rumours to bed once and for all (even if only for a yr) is more to do with people not wanting to embarrass themself or perhaps been shown they may not be quite the long range deer sniper they make out/think they are 🤣

Another point to think, what about health, how many people have failing health/eyesight yet continue on till thier last breath because its a passion/love, but in reality the accuracy is no longer what it should be ?
 
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From what I’ve heard on here,there is a lot of willy waving happens in the stalking world.
2 threads spring to mind, one is the deer syndicate advertised, due to these supposedly experienced sniper stalkers failing the shooting test, then a complete lack of people stepping forward for it…..

Then Tim’s thread talking about the 4-5inch scale …..

Then my very own dsc1 shooting assessment where just over 50% failed, including the bloke next to me who was actually shooting my target (in haunch) instead of his own….
Most these guys have revelled all week in saying how ‘expert’ they were, how many thousands of deer they grassed every week….

I am starting to think most of the refusal to do things like this that would actually put rumours to bed once and for all (even if only for a yr) is more to do with people not wanting to embarrass themself or perhaps been shown they may not be quite the long range deer sniper they make out/think they are 🤣

Another point to think, what about health, how many people have failing health/eyesight yet continue on till thier last breath because its a passion/love, but in reality the accuracy is no longer what it should be ?
I think firstly more of us think that voluntary could become compulsory.
Anyway, it's too damn cold for willy waving.
 
I think firstly more of us think that voluntary could become compulsory.
Anyway, it's too damn cold for willy waving.
I love the way that people seem to think this is a thing of the future. Depending on where/who you shoot for, an annual ‘test’ is already present. I’ve done them to keep access to stalking and for landowners to be able to show due diligence (they wanted to have a tangible proof of current ability, not a years old bit of paper that I could’ve effectively bought off a mate).

It is my understanding that FE lease holders undergo an annual shooting test - no pass, no play. Or am I wide of the mark?

I wonder if Free range rob has hit the button? Whats the point if having a 1 moa rifle (or less if you’re giving it a right good wave) if you can’t hit a 2 to 3 moa target consistently?

@Brave Echo Niner - how’s the body armour holding up? With all the nitpicking going on I’m surprised none has spotted that you are suggesting targets of 16.2 mm (circumference v diameter ). I’m up for a go if you can print them accurately!
 
Fine if the rules are in place before the shooting starts. (As in FE etc.)
If a landowner said would I mind 'checking my zero' for him in his presence, I'd be quite happy to do it. I've often done it before paid stalks. Don't have a problem with that, his/her land, their rules. I just think if this test idea became a 'thing', we'll all end up driving miles, firing 5 shots and driving miles home again.
 
I love the way that people seem to think this is a thing of the future. Depending on where/who you shoot for, an annual ‘test’ is already present. I’ve done them to keep access to stalking and for landowners to be able to show due diligence (they wanted to have a tangible proof of current ability, not a years old bit of paper that I could’ve effectively bought off a mate).

It is my understanding that FE lease holders undergo an annual shooting test - no pass, no play. Or am I wide of the mark?

I wonder if Free range rob has hit the button? Whats the point if having a 1 moa rifle (or less if you’re giving it a right good wave) if you can’t hit a 2 to 3 moa target consistently?

@Brave Echo Niner - how’s the body armour holding up? With all the nitpicking going on I’m surprised none has spotted that you are suggesting targets of 8.1 mm (circumference v diameter). I’m up for a go if you can print them accurately!


Isn't be a hard target to produce - maybe somewhat like this which I've made quickly? (if the computer scaled the grid correctly for A4 it'll be bob on.)

Also it would be a 1" Diameter for the smallest circle mentioned, so 2.54cm by my maths!

Would be interested to hear how you get on if you do decide to try it!
 

Attachments

Isn't be a hard target to produce - maybe somewhat like this which I've made quickly? (if the computer scaled the grid correctly for A4 it'll be bob on.)

Also it would be a 1" Diameter for the smallest circle mentioned, so 2.54cm by my maths!

Would be interested to hear how you get on if you do decide to try it!
If I can get it to print I shall have a play at this tomorrow
 
Good Evening All,


Following recent debate around deer stalking qualifications on various threads here I am curious to see peoples opinions on a voluntary annual assessment to demonstrate continued competency of practical marksmanship.

The assessment would offer several 'levels' to allow for 'grading' a candidates ability.

The assessment would be shot with three zeroing targets per candidate, one for each section of the assessment.

Gold
Five shots within 2" circumference circle around the bull, no time limit.
Two shots off sticks at 100M inside a 3" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).
Two shots prone at 100M inside a 2" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).

Silver
Five shots within 3" circumference circle, no time limit (centred on bull).
Two shots off sticks at 100M inside a 4" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).
Two shots prone at 100M inside a 3" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).

Bronze
Five shots within 4" circumference circle around the bull, no time limit (centred on bull).
Two shots off sticks at 100M inside a 5" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).
Two shots prone at 100M inside a 4" circumference circle around the bull, total of 60 seconds to build position and take both shots (rifle starts slung on shoulder).

Ungraded
Candidate was unable to meet one or more of the criteria for Bronze, more practice/tuition is recommended.


The assessment can be shot up to twice if the candidate wished, with the higher grading of the two being the final result for that day.

The idea behind the design of the assessment being to demonstrate precision with the first target, then ability to cope under pressure with the latter two; building an appropriate position, making a good shot, then placing a follow up shot from that position within a reasonable time frame.

The bronze standard is done with the view it should roughly match a DSC One pass standard of marksmanship.


Would you take part in an annual assessment like this if it was for a very menial fee (£5-10 range fee?) which included sign off and proof of level obtained?

I am interested to hear peoples thoughts!


Ben
By circumference, do you mean radius or diameter?

I may have a go, to see how my perceived ability compares to the standards you've set
 
By circumference, do you mean radius or diameter?

I may have a go, to see how my perceived ability compares to the standards you've set
I expect he meant diameter.
Trying to place shots in a 2" circumference circle at 100 yards would be a rather extreme test, imo.

(Having said that, the old DSC1 zeroing circle was 2 inch radius (ie, 4 inch diameter)).
 
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