Where do we start?

brobough

Member
Imagine you’re describing deer stalking to two totally novice people (that’ll be me and husband). We live in Wiltshire, recently applied for FAC as he’s shooting, have a 10 month old GWP that drives us crazy and want to get started. I was thinking of booking the 1-2-1 course at Deer Tracking Services this summer. Would that be a good place?
 
@brobough I presume you are asking about training your dog for going stalking rather than asking about stalking itself. Do you have an idea what and how you want to use the dog? Is the dog going with you stalking all of the time or will you just get the dog for wounded deer. Do you want to do feather with it as well as stalking? I haven’t done the course you mention but I did follow the Deer Dog Training Blueprint and it seemed to work. You can get a feel for the program off the free videos. The GWP are a high drive dog that aren’t necessarily the easiest to train but have amazing capabilities if you get there. The most important attribute to me is steadiness. I suspect the scent training will be very readily learnt for virtually all dogs that have high prey drive. From what I have seen the HPR breeds mature more slowly than other dogs so you need to be patient with them.
Here’s a link to the blueprint

 
Unless you can be consistent and make the dog understand he's not the alpha, with a GWP your ****ing in the wind (which having read a few of your other posts about him suggest). UKDTR or the blue print are great places but your dog should pick up the stalking and recovery side without much bother, it's the discipline and obedience he needs. Just my 2 pence on this 👍
 
I'm in Wiltshire with a 10 month GWP as well, so feel your pain.

From what you've said in other posts you need to get on top of basic discipline before getting enthusiastic about shooting over him. You can't shoot until you have the discipline nailed.

One of the leading HPR trainers in the country is Howard Kirby at Mullenscote Gundogs based at Lains shooting school near Thruxston. Go to him for help and lessons.

The other route I would look at is Test Valley HPR Club. One of the best HPR clubs in the country. They focus on training for working HPR tests which are a lot of fun (providing you don't take them too seriously). They are good measures for how you are getting on with your training and TVHPR are a very sociable bunch. But you need to get the discipline sorted before you start training for working tests, so Howard first, then TVHPR when he's ready.

I've been taking mine stalking since he was 5 months, waiting in the truck until after the shot and then tracking the deer. For the past month he has been stalking with me to heel. He's a pain in the arse at the moment but if I don't give him the experience he will not get any better. The plan is working. It's the combination of all these things that will hopefully make him a good all round dog. I've no doubt he will het there. We just need to tolerate the pain for the first 2 or 3 years :rofl:
 
I don't own a GWP (just 5 teckels) but I would recommend Deer Tracking Services, Peter is a smashing guy and will certainly get you started on the basics and take you through more complex work in time. Joining the Bavarian Mountain Hound Society of GB is also a good option as they run regular training days for all breeds
 
Also regarding this comment...." have a 10 month old GWP that drives us crazy and want to get started".

Go forward with some caution, I have heard countless people say "he's alright, he just needs to be worked" but you run the risk of hotting-up an untrained or part-trained dog - which will only make things harder. People seem obsessed with starting early but with hard-hunting breeds with off-the-chart prey drive there is no hurry - the instinct is in there, IMHO you are better off sticking to the basics, getting them steady, nailing good manners and basic obedience and only then start getting them all geed up on skins/heads/cleaves.......Take your time, get the basics right.
 
+1 for Peter Cheeseman, great place to start.

you say you are just applying for a FAC, so I assume you are just starting out in deer stalking, - learning to stalk and learning to work a deer dog are 2 mountains to climb and its best to climb one mountain at a time - so perhaps get some stalks in with out the dog first. He's 10 months old, there is no rush.

90% of deer dog work is done at the heel so a solid grounding in the basics, sit/stay, heel, recall and leave it are really useful - you can get these at any pet training obedience class, or gun dog training class. It will keep his mind busy and give you more tools to control him. Other posts

It might be worth getting on to the Totally GWP group on facebook -some members are pretty active in your area and might be able to give you some support/mentorship.

Book resources if you can get a copy - any of Guy Wallaces books - eg The Versatile Gundog. Niels Sondgaard Working with dogs for deer.
 
As others have said obedience and staying at heel is the majority of deer dog training. Not everyone agrees with me, but in my view dogs like black and white. Its very difficult to have a general purpose dog that can run around fields like crazy, go beating, flush game and then turn the switch off and instantly turn into the perfect dog at heel. To that end other than a quick burst of unsupervised running in the garden in the morning, the rest of the time the dog is always at heel (I don't always succeed but that is the aim!).

Using a lead is ideal, you can't use the lead too much. If you think the dog needs more exercise, walk further yourself. Teach the dog you are the boss, by reversing direction, if he/she pulls on the lead. Reward and encourage the dog when it does well, and doesn't run in or get distracted. Once that's mastered, replace the lead with a light string that can dangle or rest on the dogs back, ready for you to correct the dog's position.
 
I guess it might also be worth adding......Are you looking to develop;

(a) A stalking companion
or
(b) A specialist tracking dog

As with others comments, not all will agree, but I believe that there can be a big difference between the two. Here in the UK we do not use bows or muzzle loaders and we do not drive deer and shoot at running targets, therefore the wound rate is much much lower than in other parts of the world. With this in mind, a 'stalking companion' might only be really needed to find as little as 5% of the deer or 1 in 20 that you shoot - probably less. He may go a year or two without being really needed at all to find wounded deer. However, it might be very pleasurable to have your buddy out with you and he might indicate deer within your vicinity that might otherwise go undetected. In these situations I think all of the comments above about being patient, getting the basics right etc are valid.

If you want an out-and-out tracking dog, capable of 1000 yard 20 - 40 hour old tracks then you might want to start tracking training much earlier and take a different approach.

It pays to be realistic as to what you think the dogs working lifestyle will look like and then tailor your training to suit.
 
I guess it might also be worth adding......Are you looking to develop;

(a) A stalking companion
or
(b) A specialist tracking dog

As with others comments, not all will agree, but I believe that there can be a big difference between the two. Here in the UK we do not use bows or muzzle loaders and we do not drive deer and shoot at running targets, therefore the wound rate is much much lower than in other parts of the world. With this in mind, a 'stalking companion' might only be really needed to find as little as 5% of the deer or 1 in 20 that you shoot - probably less. He may go a year or two without being really needed at all to find wounded deer. However, it might be very pleasurable to have your buddy out with you and he might indicate deer within your vicinity that might otherwise go undetected. In these situations I think all of the comments above about being patient, getting the basics right etc are valid.

If you want an out-and-out tracking dog, capable of 1000 yard 20 - 40 hour old tracks then you might want to start tracking training much earlier and take a different approach.

It pays to be realistic as to what you think the dogs working lifestyle will look like and then tailor your training to suit.
Keith

As sensible answer. They are very two different requirements. Though there can be a slight over lap to a degree.

As mentioned very different task from finding a well shot animal that’s jogged 100m or so to a shot which has not gone to plan, little blood etc and requires to be left for 12hrs + for the best chance of a result, those chances significantly increase for a well trained team, if the track remains undisturbed, or as little as possible. Use of a untrained/part trained dog or a concerted effort on foot, will significantly reduce the chance of success.

Training a tracking dog is not necessary on paper difficult. Resourcing the feet blood skin etc as novices stalkers might be and then there is the time and effort. obviously not knowing the OP circumstances and opportunities.

Training a GWP full stop Is just a challenge full stop. See a previous thread that is running HWV v GWP.
 
Important to note that the 'Blueprint/Paumiko' program that @srvet reccomended is from NZ, they use their dogs in a 'heading/indicating' style which involves the dog following ground and air scent to locate a live deer (larger species, Red/Sika/Fallow) so the hunter/stalker can be aware of the deer's presence in bush cover which is for the most part quite dissimilar to what you find when stalking in the UK. In this situation, the dog walks in front of the shooter/stalker.

Ironically, the deer related use and breeding of dogs in the UK/GB was originally that of flushing the deer from woodland cover and running them down, then holding them (either physically, or 'at bay') till the humans could catch up to dispatch them with a knife. Whilst this style of hunting is still going strong within certain communities, I believe it is illegal (shame, as it's truly 100% lead free! :norty::stir: :thumb:)

What I'd reccomend is training your dog towards tracking wounded/dead (hopefully!) deer, being able to follow the trail of the deer you have stalked and shot. It is most practical to have the dog following you before the shot is made, and tracking only after you give the command to do so.

The Scandinavian and Barvarian countries have a strong tradition of tracking dogs (hence the breeds!) and we are still a fair bit behind them. Most will reccomend the book 'Tracking Dogs for Finding Wounded Deer' by John Jeanneney, which makes it clear who to look towards when developing your dog.

Your dog will need to have these traits (not in order)

-Can walk to heel

-Sit and stay for a reasonable period at distance

-Has recall, something that is essential or else you could lose your dog!

-Not gun shy, does not start whining when the rifle comes up (my stupid lab never makes a sound, but wants to run forward immediately after the shot, yet he knows when I've shot a deer and does not fall for 'training' :cuckoo: , he has improved but often gets a stern reminder! :banghead::doh: )

-Has a 'switch', using a command like 'find the deer' is a good idea.

Sometimes it will not be practical to use a leash/lead when tracking through extermely thick cover and across obstacles like water, but it has been proven that using a lead where possible helps the dog and handler to stay on task and find the deer more easily.

Another important thing to add, is the owner needs just as much training as the dog. If the shot is a good one, it will often be a routine matter of your dog locating the fallen deer, which often don't make it more than a few meters if the shot is a good one.

However, you need to be able to assess the situation, and determine if your dog is on the trail of the deer you actually shot! This is often a problem when shooting near heavy or dense cover, where the deer can jump back into cover instantly. If there was more than one deer present, 'your' deer could be lying stone dead, unseen in a nearby ditch/culvert, whilst the dog has decided to chase the live ones (more exciting and fun!)

Personally reccomend locating the shot site first before 'releasing the hounds' as you increase the likelyhood of your dog being successful. It is, more often than not, best to reinforce good behaviour with a reward, so a successful find should be 'rewarded' with some offal (only a small amount!). Remember that you are rewarding behaviour and not the results. It's often not the dog's fault if the deer cannot be located, which is an undesirable but not uncommon situation.

Try and make sure that the first deer your dog finds is a dead one. Might be worth buying a carcass or asking for a condemned (gut shot) one off a local stalker for this exercise. Let the dog 'investigate' the deer and encourage interest with verbal and physical engagement.

Some breeds will be of a disposition to start eating the carcass, so this must be watched carefully. If you start your dog on smaller deer, don't be surprised if they are a bit intimidated by larger deer species. With encouragement they will eventually engage (helps if there is a reward!)

Good luck!
 
Thanks for some good points all, currently on a journey of training a Border Terrier puppy.

I fall into the category of having a buddy for stalking; there's no doubt he's got the instinct for blood trails, but walking to heel/having a slack lead is proving challenging as her nose is to the floor constantly!

Slowly winning on the other basics.

Roe Deer liver treats cooked in the air-fryer has proved to be fantastic as high-value rewards.

R
 
Imagine you’re describing deer stalking to two totally novice people (that’ll be me and husband). We live in Wiltshire, recently applied for FAC as he’s shooting, have a 10 month old GWP that drives us crazy and want to get started. I was thinking of booking the 1-2-1 course at Deer Tracking Services this summer. Would that be a good place?
kenneled or in the house ? with you all day in the main or are you out during work hours. As an EX GWP owner and knowing many others who keep them , the points mentioned seem to have real relevance with the breed as regards how the training progresses . I don't really require an answer because i am suggesting from my own observation the breed does best with the household in harmony and the dog very much in contact with the owner / owners
 
Plenty of very god advice above.

Ur doing the right thing going to see a pro/experienced trainer esp 1 that knows hpr's, generally with 1-1 or group training its more about training the owner/handler than the actual dog.
I would try to get in to see ur trainer as soon as possible so he can give u some god advice on getting started, no point putting it off and reinforcing any problems it already has.
Group training is also a very good idea althou possibly too soon yet, i'd ask ur trainers opinion 1st, but generally great for teaching heel/obedience with other dogs as distractions.
If a good club with good trainers u can often learn as much watching other dogs problems and how they fix them as often either that dog or ur next might develop that same issue


The other thing and most have also said it and i'm repeating it as it is so so important to any working dog ( or any pet dog too) and it is the thing that lets most dogs down, BASIC OBEDIENCE!!!

Before u can start on any fancy training the dog needs to be steady walking to heel (on and off lead), sitting ( idealling sitting when u stop without any signal), staying and recalling.
And all will need to be 100% before u even start to think about taking it stalking
But all the above will make ur dog an absolute joy to be as a pet too.

Just my opinion but don't agree with these stalkin gleads that u tie to u, u should not have to strap/tie a dog to u to get it to walk to heel.

Some good points about wot u actually want the dog to do further down line tracking wise, which are valid but i wouldnae worry too much the now as ur basics are the most important thing to concentrate on, the rest will come later.


! thing i will say about hpr's in general but esp GWP's is it is quite hard to give decent advice on some issues as the drive of the dogs can be so so different, wot someone does with a relatively soft, sensitive, slow ( if such a thing exist's) type dog will be very different to wot u would do with a real strong head banger type dog.
Without actually seeing the dog and knowing which type it is ( u might think its a head banger when infact its not really)

Getting proper advice will be well worth it, and think of it as an investment for the next 10-15 years of living with a nice easy pet or a hooligan that makes ur life a nightmare.

Also if u are new to stalking ( possibly also guns too) i would be careful taking it stalking intiailly until u are 100% sure and confident about ur gun handling/safety as when u add in a dog too it is possible an accident could happen.
even the 1st few times u take him out even when fully trained go a sa pair and 1 is purely a dog handler so it doesn't pick up any bad habits as it knows ur too busy concentrating elsewhere


Good luck with it
 
Countryboy said "thing i will say about hpr's in general but esp GWP's is it is quite hard to give decent advice on some issues as the drive of the dogs can be so so different, wot someone does with a relatively soft, sensitive, slow ( if such a thing exist's) type dog will be very different to wot u would do with a real strong head banger type dog.
Without actually seeing the dog and knowing which type it is ( u might think its a head banger when infact its not really)"

Absolutely spot-on and is the same for so many breeds - you have to take each dog as an individual.
 
Absolutely spot-on and is the same for so many breeds - you have to take each dog as an individual.

Definately keith althou i'd say with more 'normal' gundogs say ur spaniels or labs the difference between individuals is far less, esp out of the same litter or line a lot can be fairly well predicted by decent breeders.
Still have to treat every dog on its own merits but generally nowadays most advice would work fairly will on most dogs

I think just the ammount breed nowadays has sort of 'levelled' out the more extremes, cause even 30 years ago u'd still get far more head strong dogs now they seem far more 'bitchy'.

With wires i've known all the spectrums to be in the same litter, from real steady ( slow) to absolute head banger often with a dog/bitch split ( dogs in head banger class).
Not that i've had much to do with teckels but i can imagine they could be similar, most i've seen i woud describe as fairly driven, head strong ( in polite terms) compared to other breeds no idea wot there like in the teckel scale of head bangery, but thats wot u get with more tracking orientated breeds.
 
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