Which is more powerful?

[njc110381]

I've thrown info like that at my FEO numerous times, it's got me nowhere in most cases. When I got my .416 I initially asked for a .458 Lott but they'd only allow range use. Then they said a .416 would be ok? It's still a monster of a cartridge but with better down range performance. I really don't think that side of the argument is even a consideration, it's just down to bore size.

I had the same when I asked for my .35 Whelen. That was a bunfight even though I was trading from a 7STW. Look up the long range figures on that and it'll make your eyes water! It retained more energy at 1000 yards than the Whelen could muster at 500, but they still argued the toss for ages. I got there in the end, but ti took some effort on my part.

The whole thing confuses me. .45-70 is in the guidelines for deer, so surely anything smaller than that should be ok? It is what it is though, and I can't see it ever changing for the better.

 

[Stalker62]

Applications are supposed to be considered from the point of view of the applicant not from an objector's point of view.

This is true.

Do FEO's have any formal National Training and regular reviews of their performance to ensure consistency?

This (mores the pity) is not true. Were that it was so.

That said, I have (by and large) found most FEOs to be helpful. If they are shooters then you are half-way there.
If they are not, then I have always found it beneficial (to both sides), to take the time, to calmly and (well informed) put my case.

It was so much easier when the FEO was in the role a while, and you could build up a trust based relationship. Even inviting them for an "informal" visit, (they will be "giving their eyes a treat" so do make sure your house is in order) for a cup of tea and a chat.

I have been in my lasted hovel home, for over five years now, and have never met my FEO. This is unhelpful for both both parties.

Post pandemic and legacy funding cuts, it will, I fear, not improve any time soon.

 

[njc110381]

From what I can gather some chamberings may also fall foul of range rules regarding speed and/or muzzle energy.

The .17 Remington certainly does. And often .22-250. Light .243 can smash range velocity limits. Try doing that with a .308, .338 Federal or .35 Whelen. You'll be lucky to come close on a 7000 joule range.

 

[Border]

The .17 Remington certainly does. And often .22-250. Light .243 can smash range velocity limits. Try doing that with a .308, .338 Federal or .35 Whelen. You'll be lucky to come close on a 7000 joule range.

220 Swift as well.
The big and slow train of thought can also be an issue in Scotland with minimum velocity requirements (2450 fps?)

 

[bfltd0]

Don't worry about which is the most powerful or dangerous as they will all kill you at 1000 yards.

Would that were true......

There are numerous accounts over the last few decades of combatants being hit with the 5.56/.223 in combat (sometimes multiple times) and still being able to fight on.

And more recently, remember the Fishmongers Hall terrorist who took 2 centre-fire rifle rounds from a maximum of 3 metres which incapacitated him - but only initially. A few minutes later, he woke up and was capable of movement (and if his suicide vest was real, he could have actuated the switch).

Admittedly, an unaware adrenalin-free deer 1/3 the size of a man is a different ball-game, but at 1000m, I would still be very wary of using a small centrefire round against anything other than a paper target.

A .338 Lap Mag, on the other hand, would be fine.

 

[njc110381]

220 Swift as well.
The big and slow train of thought can also be an issue in Scotland with minimum velocity requirements (2450 fps?)

Madness isn't it. Getting 2450 out of my .416 is far from comfortable but I wouldn't doubt for a second that it could flatten a little red deer. My .35 Whelen is similar, that needs a good shove with light bullets to hit the specs. 250gr bullets out of that are good for moose, but not enough for reds in Scotland! But then a short barrelled .243 or 6.5x55 can fall foul too.

 

[Namman]

From what I can gather some chamberings may also fall foul of range rules regarding speed and/or muzzle energy.

They can come into HME category.

 

[User00025]

Would that were true......

There are numerous accounts over the last few decades of combatants being hit with the 5.56/.223 in combat (sometimes multiple times) and still being able to fight on.

And more recently, remember the Fishmongers Hall terrorist who took 2 centre-fire rifle rounds from a maximum of 3 metres which incapacitated him - but only initially. A few minutes later, he woke up and was capable of movement (and if his suicide vest was real, he could have actuated the switch).

Admittedly, an unaware adrenalin-free deer 1/3 the size of a man is a different ball-game, but at 1000m, I would still be very wary of using a small centrefire round against anything other than a paper target.

A .338 Lap Mag, on the other hand, would be fine.

Right spot, you are dead, anywhere else is a wound even with 7.62. The Fishmongers hall was really crap shooting. The only one I was dubious of was the 30 cal carbine. Great tool to 100 yards or in close stuff, over that could and has resulted in big bruises where thick, heavy, loose clothing was worn.

 

[bfltd0]

When I occasionally carried the 9mm Browning Hi-Power, I was not reassured by the pistol calibre ballistics.

We used to joke that the round would be defeated by a wet donkey jacket at 50m.

And most of us couldn't even hit a wet donkey jacket at 50m with a Browning.

 

[Border]

When I occasionally carried the 9mm Browning Hi-Power, I was not reassured by the pistol calibre ballistics.

We used to joke that the round would be defeated by a wet donkey jacket at 50m.

And most of us couldn't even hit a wet donkey jacket at 50m with a Browning.

Good shotguns though

 

[bfltd0]

Good shotguns though

Wet donkey jacket at 30m would defeat a 12b game load.

Buckshot, however.............let alone a solid slug!

 

[shakey jake]

Wet donkey jacket at 30m would defeat a 12b game load.

Buckshot, however.............let alone a solid slug!

not something id be keen to try!

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

By and large the decisions are not based on logic....

you need to present the argument that is irrefutable when it comes to this.
No room for negotiation.
If you want a 416 present the data that makes the decision easy for the FeO

We had a chap do a variation switch from 303 to 300wm and be told that was easy “as it was a smaller cartridge”.......

 

[njc110381]

By and large the decisions are not based on logic....

you need to present the argument that is irrefutable when it comes to this.
No room for negotiation.
If you want a 416 present the data that makes the decision easy for the FeO

We had a chap do a variation switch from 303 to 300wm and be told that was easy “as it was a smaller cartridge”.......

You hear of all sorts coming from FEO's. The stuff I've read over the years is hilarious. .25-06 only being granted for the smaller species was one I read recently because I was researching the round.

The thing that gets me is the way a lot of FEO's don't really know as much as the people they're controlling. I had one come out to me for a land check years ago, it was my primary land and I wanted to up the calibre it was cleared for. After sucking through her teeth at clearing the land for .338 (she did clear it), she then proceeded to ask what I thought about what the next guy she was visiting had asked for. I gave a pretty long and detailed list of reasons why I said what I did, and she just said "ok, thanks. I'll tell him that". He must have been happy - I talked her into granting him a 9.3x74R double rifle for deer!