Why shoot the foxes?

[old keeper]

Foxes will certainly take roe kids if they get the chance. Some years ago I watched a fox on some land owned by an equine set up where no shooting is allowed having a go at a kid. The doe kept chasing it off and the fox led it further and further away. The audience of horse owners were watching and saying the fox was playing with the doe!

After about ten minutes of this, the doe was struggling a bit and the fox nipped up the hill into the cover and that was that. I went there later that evening and found the remains of the kid, From what I saw it had been perfectly healthy till the fox dealt with it.

 

[Ratel]

Whilst I can agree with VSS to a certain extent, it does not necessary boil down to lamb losses being due to mismanagement. When working North of the border on two estates we had fox predation each year. Late spring we would do all the dens on the hill that were worked and destroy the vixen and litter in one go. That night it would be sitting out all night waiting for any alarm calls by birds to get the dog. Blackface sheep lambed out on the hill.any losses to foxes were not too onerous although we sat out a lot in daytime and lamped at night as our grouse moor was surrounded by forestry. Ewes scanned with twins lambed in inbye fields which was where problems occurred. Foxes would come from the low ground areas and take first born lambs while the ewe was birthing the second. The next morning the second born were always alive and mobile not dead as Tim described. Usually the dead things were a fox and sometimes the first lamb.
Working on the Cotswolds we had the same problem with sheep lambing outdoors.
The other problem there was a "Green Pig farm" and foxes used to steal piglets quicker than a kid could eat Smarties. Several times I shot a fox carrying a piglet.in broad daylight. I wouldn't want to kill every fox but as the old saying goes "The last mammals left on earth will be the fox and the rat, who will eat who?"

 

[VSS]

.
The other problem there was a "Green Pig farm" and foxes used to steal piglets quicker than a kid could eat Smarties. Several times I shot a fox carrying a piglet.in broad daylight. I wouldn't want to kill every fox but as the old saying goes "The last mammals left on earth will be the fox and the rat, who will eat who?"

100% agree with you about outdoor pig units. They're an absolute magnet for foxes.

. Foxes would come from the low ground areas and take first born lambs while the ewe was birthing the second. The next morning the second born were always alive and mobile not dead as Tim described. Usually the dead things were a fox and sometimes the first lamb.

What reason have for supposing that it was the first lamb, not the second, that was predated?
I think it's a common misconception that whenever a lamb is predated out of a set of twins it's the first one that's taken because the ewe was distracted while having the second.
If you understand sheep behaviour, you'll understand that it is most likely to be the other way around, but if you have evidence to support the idea that it's the first one that gets taken I'd be interested to hear it.

As I'm on a bit of a roll here, discussing my all-time favourite subject, I'll give you an interesting example of how a small difference in flock management can make a big difference to fox predation levels.
It's a genuine example, and I know the two farms well.
The two farms are neighbours. In fact their lambing fields are adjacent to one another. The same foxes do the rounds of both farms every night.
Both farms have the same breed of sheep, lambing outdoors at the same time of year. Feeding regime for the two flocks is pretty much the same.
During the lambing period, neither flock is checked at night, but both are checked at frequent intervals throughout daylight hours.

At lambing time, the shepherd on farm 1 has a fairly low intervention approach. When he sees a ewe in the process of giving birth he keeps her under observation from a distance. Even if the labour is prolonged, he leaves the ewe to get on with it on her own. Only once she's given birth, got to her feet and licked the lamb(s) does he approach to check her over (eg, check her udder), check the lambs and apply iodine to their navels. The only time he intervenes in the birth is if it becomes evident that there's a serious problem.

On farm 2 the shepherd takes a more proactive approach. When he sees a ewe in the process of giving birth he'll catch her and assist the delivery rather than leaving the ewe to struggle for a prolonged period. As soon as he's delivered the lambs he does the necessary checks, sprays the lambs navels and leaves the ewe to mother them

Farm 1 does not lose any lambs to foxes, whereas farm 2 loses a significant number, despite the shepherd on farm 2 being adamant that he's doing what's best to increase the chances of lamb survival. What he's doing is considered fairly normal practice. So what's wrong?

Well think about it:
Firstly he's had to catch the ewe in labour, which often involves a chase with the quad. So by the time he's caught her she's exhausted and stressed. Not a good start.
Secondly, in the process of catching her he's moved her away from the place she had chosen to give birth. So the territorial instinct that would lead her to defend that spot against predators has been disrupted.
Thirdly, in delivering the lambs he's placed the ewe at high risk of infection and / or retained placenta. Even a mild infection can reduce maternal instinct and reduce milk yield, leaving the lambs hungry and vulnerable.
Fourthly, by delivering the lambs before the ewe was properly ready and sufficiently opened up he's risked damaging the lambs (broken ribs are pretty common, for example). There are also important processes that take place during the course of a normal birth that will have been disrupted.
Fifthly, by spraying the lambs' navels before the ewe has had a chance to mother them he's upset the scent and the ewe may take longer to accept them.

So, in doing what he's always thought is "the best thing" he's compromised those lambs chances right from the start, and made them vulnerable to predation. Sure, you can shoot the foxes, but that doesn't get to the root of the problem.

 

[JTO]

Some people on this thread sound like the social worker who found a murder victim in the gutter and said:- "Whoever did that needs help".

 

[Overlay]

100% agree with you about outdoor pig units. They're an absolute magnet for foxes.


What reason have for supposing that it was the first lamb, not the second, that was predated?
I think it's a common misconception that whenever a lamb is predated out of a set of twins it's the first one that's taken because the ewe was distracted while having the second.
If you understand sheep behaviour, you'll understand that it is most likely to be the other way around, but if you have evidence to support the idea that it's the first one that gets taken I'd be interested to hear it.

As I'm on a bit of a roll here, discussing my all-time favourite subject, I'll give you an interesting example of how a small difference in flock management can make a big difference to fox predation levels.
It's a genuine example, and I know the two farms well.
The two farms are neighbours. In fact their lambing fields are adjacent to one another. The same foxes do the rounds of both farms every night.
Both farms have the same breed of sheep, lambing outdoors at the same time of year. Feeding regime for the two flocks is pretty much the same.
During the lambing period, neither flock is checked at night, but both are checked at frequent intervals throughout daylight hours.

At lambing time, the shepherd on farm 1 has a fairly low intervention approach. When he sees a ewe in the process of giving birth he keeps her under observation from a distance. Even if the labour is prolonged, he leaves the ewe to get on with it on her own. Only once she's given birth, got to her feet and licked the lamb(s) does he approach to check her over (eg, check her udder), check the lambs and apply iodine to their navels. The only time he intervenes in the birth is if it becomes evident that there's a serious problem.

On farm 2 the shepherd takes a more proactive approach. When he sees a ewe in the process of giving birth he'll catch her and assist the delivery rather than leaving the ewe to struggle for a prolonged period. As soon as he's delivered the lambs he does the necessary checks, sprays the lambs navels and leaves the ewe to mother them

Farm 1 does not lose any lambs to foxes, whereas farm 2 loses a significant number, despite the shepherd on farm 2 being adamant that he's doing what's best to increase the chances of lamb survival. What he's doing is considered fairly normal practice. So what's wrong?

Well think about it:
Firstly he's had to catch the ewe in labour, which often involves a chase with the quad. So by the time he's caught her she's exhausted and stressed. Not a good start.
Secondly, in the process of catching her he's moved her away from the place she had chosen to give birth. So the territorial instinct that would lead her to defend that spot against predators has been disrupted.
Thirdly, in delivering the lambs he's placed the ewe at high risk of infection and / or retained placenta. Even a mild infection can reduce maternal instinct and reduce milk yield, leaving the lambs hungry and vulnerable.
Fourthly, by delivering the lambs before the ewe was properly ready and sufficiently opened up he's risked damaging the lambs (broken ribs are pretty common, for example). There are also important processes that take place during the course of a normal birth that will have been disrupted.
Fifthly, by spraying the lambs' navels before the ewe has had a chance to mother them he's upset the scent and the ewe may take longer to accept them.

So, in doing what he's always thought is "the best thing" he's compromised those lambs chances right from the start, and made them vulnerable to predation. Sure, you can shoot the foxes, but that doesn't get to the root of the problem.

Wow that’s a lot of a learning curve I got and understood every bit Thank you

 

[VSS]

Some people on this thread sound like the social worker who found a murder victim in the gutter and said:- "Whoever did that needs help".

You think so?
I should say whoever allowed the victim to be put at risk of being murdered is the one who needs some guidance.

 

[Ratel]

100% agree with you about outdoor pig units. They're an absolute magnet for foxes.


What reason have for supposing that it was the first lamb, not the second, that was predated?
I think it's a common misconception that whenever a lamb is predated out of a set of twins it's the first one that's taken because the ewe was distracted while having the second.
If you understand sheep behaviour, you'll understand that it is most likely to be the other way around, but if you have evidence to support the idea that it's the first one that gets taken I'd be interested to hear it.

Well I can only say that a gent on here said the ewe would see the fox off leaving her second lamb to die probably of asphyxiation. My only evidence is shooting a few foxes carrying a lamb away while the ewe is in extremis with the second. I have also shot two foxes that were working the ewe after both lambs were born like a pair of collies and the first I shot had a standing lamb before the other got to its feet. But here and again we are splitting hairs, fox predation on naturally small blackie lambs is rife in the Scottish hills despite good shepherding. The Shepherd cannot be there day and night so stopping it is generally down to the keepering staff. I do however bow to your far superior knowledge Tim as I have only ever done one lambing and that was Suffolks indoors.

 

[Smellydog]

You think so?
I should say whoever allowed the victim to be put at risk of being murdered is the one who needs some guidance.

I really do not understand that Tim.
So are you asking us to accept that were say you attacked and became a victim on the way to the chippie because your wife wanted chips its her fault and the aggressor should walk freely?

 

[Nickb]

I really do not understand that Tim.
So are you asking us to accept that were say you attacked and became a victim on the way to the chippie because your wife wanted chips its her fault and the aggressor should walk freely?

Some folk arent wired up properly

 

[BenBhoy]

check the lambs and apply iodine to their navels.

I use to go one step further - imo an outdoor lamb doesn't need iodine. On decent growth of pasture a lamb will be clean enough to avoid joint ill, with good feed of colostrum. I never iodined outdoor lambs.

 

[VSS]

Well I can only say that a gent on here said the ewe would see the fox off leaving her second lamb to die probably of asphyxiation. My only evidence is shooting a few foxes carrying a lamb away while the ewe is in extremis with the second. I have also shot two foxes that were working the ewe after both lambs were born like a pair of collies and the first I shot had a standing lamb before the other got to its feet. But here and again we are splitting hairs, fox predation on naturally small blackie lambs is rife in the Scottish hills despite good shepherding. The Shepherd cannot be there day and night so stopping it is generally down to the keepering staff. I do however bow to your far superior knowledge Tim as I have only ever done one lambing and that was Suffolks indoors.

You misquote me, my friend! Nowhere did I suggest that the lamb would die while the ewe was seeing off the fox.
But that's by-the-by, and we are, as you say, splitting hairs. I accept your eye-witness account

However, you quite rightly point out that the shepherd cannot be there day and night, which is why much happens unseen, and assumptions as to possible causes are made. It is not human nature to say "that lamb died due to my failing". Much more palatable to assume the fox was not only responsible for eating it, but for its death.

The only reason I claim to know so much about this particular subject is because, in an attempt to gain a full understanding of what really goes on, I have done what you say shepherds cannot do. I have sat and watched sheep, and noted all their behaviour and the outcomes of that behaviour, night after night, day after day, for weeks on end. 20 hour shifts followed by a 4 hour kip in the daytime, during which time I had someone else on duty to record everything that happened, so it was uninterrupted round-the-clock observation. I was mad I know, but I really did want to get to the bottom of the whole lamb mortality issue which plagues the UK sheep industry. Trouble is, a lot of what I discovered, and have proven, goes against the habitual way in which people manage their sheep. And people don't like being told that the way they do something is not the best way of doing it. So it can be a bit of an uphill battle sometimes trying to convince someone that if they make changes that I suggest they will reduce their losses. But once someone is converted they never look back!

I use to go one step further - imo an outdoor lamb doesn't need iodine. On decent growth of pasture a lamb will be clean enough to avoid joint ill, with good feed of colostrum. I never iodined outdoor lambs.

You wait until you're doing a lambing contract on a farm where the lambing fields are overstocked or dirty, or where an earlier group has already lambed in the same season. You might just live to regret that policy!

 

[BenBhoy]

You wait until you're doing a lambing contract on a farm where the lambing fields are overstocked or dirty,

Well fair enough mate, I'm not going to. Like I said, on nice pasture of clean lambs.

 

[Overlay]

You misquote me, my friend! Nowhere did I suggest that the lamb would die while the ewe was seeing off the fox.
But that's by-the-by, and we are, as you say, splitting hairs. I accept your eye-witness account

However, you quite rightly point out that the shepherd cannot be there day and night, which is why much happens unseen, and assumptions as to possible causes are made. It is not human nature to say "that lamb died due to my failing". Much more palatable to assume the fox was not only responsible for eating it, but for its death.

The only reason I claim to know so much about this particular subject is because, in an attempt to gain a full understanding of what really goes on, I have done what you say shepherds cannot do. I have sat and watched sheep, and noted all their behaviour and the outcomes of that behaviour, night after night, day after day, for weeks on end. 20 hour shifts followed by a 4 hour kip in the daytime, during which time I had someone else on duty to record everything that happened, so it was uninterrupted round-the-clock observation. I was mad I know, but I really did want to get to the bottom of the whole lamb mortality issue which plagues the UK sheep industry. Trouble is, a lot of what I discovered, and have proven, goes against the habitual way in which people manage their sheep. And people don't like being told that the way they do something is not the best way of doing it. So it can be a bit of an uphill battle sometimes trying to convince someone that if they make changes that I suggest they will reduce their losses. But once someone is converted they never look back!


You wait until you're doing a lambing contract on a farm where the lambing fields are overstocked or dirty, or where an earlier group has already lambed in the same season. You might just live to regret that policy!

Vss
I’ll take my hat to you, that’s some commitment taken to find a solution, I’m in no way a farmer or shepherd despite growing up on a farm, my work involves wildlife management one part of that is fox work,
Re the lambs / lambing season what one thing would you say will turn the tide on lamb mortality rate, if taken on board immediately the lambing begins that will make a change
On one farm myself, the shepherd and the farmer I put up two high seats and a fox box and had the multis in between 2 high seats and singles other end with a fox box over looking the lot of those all fields checked for fallen stock on dark over 3 nights a total 11, 7 and 3 - 21 foxes shot in the actual fields it was a hard Dusk to dawn coverage then the shepherd was on site
Only losses he had was in the daytime and natural I didn’t get privy to the daytime numbers
Now 8 years later I still do the same but also after the harvest clear up more up to lambing
I like to think my work is making a difference

It has always concerned me on lamb losses when you see a pile of em and no way of ascertaining how they died made me think how it pans out on being viable,

 

[BenBhoy]

But once someone is converted they never look back!

Well you converted me this year to feeding housed ewes on floor as opposed to troughs & will never go back. Feeding time so much more relaxed, kept ewes entertained for much longer & kept them moving around which I believe went long way to only have one (mild) prolapse all year. Diolch.

 

[Ratel]

You misquote me, my friend! Nowhere did I suggest that the lamb would die while the ewe was seeing off the fox.
But that's by-the-by, and we are, as you say, splitting hairs. I accept your eye-witness account

However, you quite rightly point out that the shepherd cannot be there day and night, which is why much happens unseen, and assumptions as to possible causes are made. It is not human nature to say "that lamb died due to my failing". Much more palatable to assume the fox was not only responsible for eating it, but for its death.

The only reason I claim to know so much about this particular subject is because, in an attempt to gain a full understanding of what really goes on, I have done what you say shepherds cannot do. I have sat and watched sheep, and noted all their behaviour and the outcomes of that behaviour, night after night, day after day, for weeks on end. 20 hour shifts followed by a 4 hour kip in the daytime, during which time I had someone else on duty to record everything that happened, so it was uninterrupted round-the-clock observation. I was mad I know, but I really did want to get to the bottom of the whole lamb mortality issue which plagues the UK sheep industry. Trouble is, a lot of what I discovered, and have proven, goes against the habitual way in which people manage their sheep. And people don't like being told that the way they do something is not the best way of doing it. So it can be a bit of an uphill battle sometimes trying to convince someone that if they make changes that I suggest they will reduce their losses. But once someone is converted they never look back!


You wait until you're doing a lambing contract on a farm where the lambing fields are overstocked or dirty, or where an earlier group has already lambed in the same season. You might just live to regret that policy!

Hi Tim, sorry to be a pedant but I would refer you to post 250 concerning the second lamb dying.

 

[VSS]

Hi Tim, sorry to be a pedant but I would refer you to post 250 concerning the second lamb dying.

Read it again.
No mention of the ewe trying to drive off a fox.
It might have been a few hours later before the fox appeared on the scene.

Even in indoor lambing flocks, the 2nd lamb of twins is often lost for exactly the same reason, although it's easier to take some very simple steps to prevent it indoors.

 

[Ratel]

Read it again.
No mention of the ewe trying to drive off a fox.
It might have been a few hours later before the fox appeared on the scene.

Even in indoor lambing flocks, the 2nd lamb of twins is often lost for exactly the same reason, although it's easier to take some very simple steps to prevent it indoors.

Semantics

 

[VSS]

Semantics

Not at all.
I did not implicate the fox in the death in any way, not even merely by its presence being a distraction. In the scenario I outlined in post #250 the lamb was well and truly dead long before the fox appeared on the scene.

Re the lambs / lambing season what one thing would you say will turn the tide on lamb mortality rate, if taken on board immediately the lambing begins that will make a change


It has always concerned me on lamb losses when you see a pile of em and no way of ascertaining how they died made me think how it pans out on being viable,

I think I've probably hijacked this thread enough by now, and I expect most people are just wishing I'd get off my soap box and go back to looking at sheep!
However, I'm happy to send you some suggestions by PM if you're genuinely interested?

(I doubt I will get off my soap box though. Its a subject I can't resist!)

 

[Overlay]

Thanks VSS
Have sent PM
Cheers
Phil

 

[Robinson]

I think we should stop our fight against nature. Since the first farmer domesticated his first farm animal, several millennia's ago, predators have been there wanting to eat his farm animal. And the farmer have for thousands of years done what he could to prevent that predator from doing so. Very often by killing that predator when possible. It's the most natural thing in the world , just as natural as the predator pinching a lamb or a hen.