Wild Boar - Minimum calibre?

[megsjockey]

I can't agree
Native species (indigenous) –A species, subspecies or lower taxon, occurring within its natural range (past and present) and dispersal potential (i.e. within the range it occupies naturally or could occupy without direct or indirect introduction or care by humans) (IUCN Guidelines, 2000).

Absence does not stop a species being indigenous, I'm sure that many will be familiar with the Mongolian Wild Horse Equus przewalskii (Mongolia)and Pere Davids deer Elaphurus davidianus (China), both became extinct in their native lands but that does not stop them being indigenous to those areas... even if they have had to be reintroduced.

atb Tim

I read your above post with interest.

Please do not take offence at me pointing this out (and apologies if someone else already has) but British wild boar became extinct (killed out, dead and deceased) centuries ago. They are not just 'absent' and they have indeed required care (and some carelessness) and could not occupy their present range were it not for their indirect introduction by humans. So, by the terms of your own quoted guidelines, the current ones simply cannot be indigenous. Naturally, I stand to be corrected, but if your quoted terms are correct there really is no argument in this.

 

[timbrayford]

I read your above post with interest.

Please do not take offence at me pointing this out (and apologies if someone else already has) but British wild boar became extinct (killed out, dead and deceased) centuries ago. They are not just 'absent' and they have indeed required care (and some carelessness) and could not occupy their present range were it not for their indirect introduction by humans. So, by the terms of your own quoted guidelines, the current ones simply cannot be indigenous. Naturally, I stand to be corrected, but if your quoted terms are correct there really is no argument in this.

But that would presume that the original British Wild Boar were genetically distinct from all other wild boar in Western Europe , what you say is correct in respect of the Eastern European sub species and Boar X Domestic pig hybrids. The fact that these Western European Boar migrated here after the Ice Age makes them native,and in this respect absence does not equate to non-native. I can quite understand that this is a difficult concept to grasp.

atb Tim

 

[megsjockey]

But that would presume that the original British Wild Boar were genetically distinct from all other wild boar in Western Europe , what you say is correct in respect of the Eastern European sub species and Boar X Domestic pig hybrids. The fact that these Western European Boar migrated here after the Ice Age makes them native,and in this respect absence does not equate to non-native. I can quite understand that this is a difficult concept to grasp.

atb Tim

With respect, the important matter is that wild boar in Britain today would not be here were it not for their accidental introduction by humans. That is what determines that they are not indigenous, under the terms you have quoted.

Native species (indigenous) –A species, subspecies or lower taxon, occurring within its natural range (past and present) and dispersal potential (i.e. within the range it occupies naturally or could occupy without direct or indirect introduction or care by humans) (IUCN Guidelines, 2000).

 

[timbrayford]

With respect, the important matter is that wild boar in Britain today would not be here were it not for their accidental introduction by humans. That is what determines that they are not indigenous, under the terms you have quoted.

Not true, as wild boar were here in the past that makes them native, they don't have to be continuously present, to be an alien species they would have had to be originally introduced by man eg.Fallow deer, I don't think that anyone is suggesting that wild boar are not a reintroduced species, albeit accidentally via escapes, but this does not equate to them being an alien species.

Further IUCN definitions:-

Alien species

(synonyms: non-native, non-indigenous, foreign, exotic): a species, subspecies,
or lower taxon introduced outside its normal past or present distribution (wild boar here in the past)

Reintroduction is the intentional movement and release of an organism inside its indigenous range from which it has disappeared

 

[megsjockey]

Not true, as wild boar were here in the past that makes them native, they don't have to be continuously present, to be an alien species they would have had to be originally introduced by man eg.Fallow deer, I don't think that anyone is suggesting that wild boar are not a reintroduced species, albeit accidentally via escapes, but this does not equate to them being an alien species.

Further IUCN definitions:-

Alien species

(synonyms: non-native, non-indigenous, foreign, exotic): a species, subspecies,
or lower taxon introduced outside its normal past or present distribution (wild boar here in the past)

Reintroduction is the intentional movement and release of an organism inside its indigenous range from which it has disappeared

You clearly imagine that I am simply being obtuse. I am not. So, let us now take your quoted IUCN definition of 'Reintroduction'

Reintroduction is the intentional movement and release of an organism inside its indigenous range from which it has disappeared

The wild boar that are in Britain today were not 'intentionally' moved and released. They were strictly licensed, captive animals and they 'escaped'. Thus they have not been 're-introduced by IUCN terms.

I'm sorry, I would actually really like it if the present wild living wild boar in the UK were classed as indigenous wild animals. They are not.

Far from showing how the regulations say that they are, you have actually clearly show why they are NOT classed indigenous. That is the simple truth and I am as sorry about that as you. However, I do accept this is the truth of the matter. We now need to move on (both you and I and the legislation) to admitting that they have now lived wild here for sufficiently long as to have become 'naturalised' and deserve to be treated as though they were actually 'indigenous'.

 

[ELMER FUDD]

Not true, as wild boar were here in the past that makes them native, they don't have to be continuously present, to be an alien species they would have had to be originally introduced by man eg.Fallow deer, I don't think that anyone is suggesting that wild boar are not a reintroduced species, albeit accidentally via escapes, but this does not equate to them being an alien species.

Further IUCN definitions:-

Alien species

(synonyms: non-native, non-indigenous, foreign, exotic): a species, subspecies,
or lower taxon introduced outside its normal past or present distribution (wild boar here in the past)

Reintroduction is the intentional movement and release of an organism inside its indigenous range from which it has disappeared

Haven't called them alien species as they were here from around the 11th century but died out and reintroduced about the 16th century

Not disappeared but died/killed out in the 17th century meaning none left

The extinction of wild boar in Britain.
The date at which wild boar finally became extinct in Britain is unclear due to subsequent attempts at re-introduction. In continental Europe, wild boar were (and still are) widely distributed and attempts were made in the 18th and 19th centuries to re-introduce animals to Britain from abroad, initially into private estates for hunting purposes. James 1st released animals firstly from France and then from Germany into Windsor Park in 1608 and 1611 respectively. His son, Charles 1st (reigned 1625-1649), also released boar into the New Forest from Germany. These re-introductions were not successful in the long term as the majority of people regarded wild boar as [agricultural] pests and saw to their destruction.
It is thought that the original British wild boar were probably extinct by the 13th century, and the re-introduced animals became extinct during the 17th century. Between the 17th century and the 1980's, when wild boar farming began, only a handful of captive wild boar, imported from the continent as zoo exhibits, were present in Britain. Until very recently, no free-living wild boar (native or introduced) have been present in Britain for the last 300 years.

I think the fact that cases involving wild boar/ feral pigs have been thrown out of court due to the experts proving these animals are non indigenous then I believe they would have the final say.

I would rather be on the side of proving these pests are non indigenous than indigenous in a court of law.

 

[timbrayford]

Clarification from the IUCN today:-
[FONT=&amp]It means that the taxon is considered native to an area if it occurs naturally there right now (i.e., resident all year round (past, present and future), or regularly visits the area for breeding purposes or to use other resources – food, resting areas along a migratory route, etc.); or if it has occurred naturally there in the past and but no longer occurs there (i.e., it is regionally extinct from that area or has become extinct across its entire global range).[/FONT]

 

[paul k]

You clearly imagine that I am simply being obtuse. I am not. So, let us now take your quoted IUCN definition of 'Reintroduction'



The wild boar that are in Britain today were not 'intentionally' moved and released. They were strictly licensed, captive animals and they 'escaped'. Thus they have not been 're-introduced by IUCN terms.....

Actually at least two of the present populations were the result of a deliberate release, these being the second Forest of Dean release and the release near East Anstey in Devon. There may be more.

 

[megsjockey]

Actually at least two of the present populations were the result of a deliberate release, these being the second Forest of Dean release and the release near East Anstey in Devon. There may be more.

In contravention of the agreements entered into in order to obtain the licenses to own. i.e. the 'Intention' not to release is a matter of record, breach of which constitutes an offence.

 

[paul k]

Haven't called them alien species as they were here from around the 11th century but died out and reintroduced about the 16th century

Not disappeared but died/killed out in the 17th century meaning none left

The extinction of wild boar in Britain.
The date at which wild boar finally became extinct in Britain is unclear due to subsequent attempts at re-introduction. In continental Europe, wild boar were (and still are) widely distributed and attempts were made in the 18th and 19th centuries to re-introduce animals to Britain from abroad, initially into private estates for hunting purposes. James 1st released animals firstly from France and then from Germany into Windsor Park in 1608 and 1611 respectively. His son, Charles 1st (reigned 1625-1649), also released boar into the New Forest from Germany. These re-introductions were not successful in the long term as the majority of people regarded wild boar as [agricultural] pests and saw to their destruction.
It is thought that the original British wild boar were probably extinct by the 13th century, and the re-introduced animals became extinct during the 17th century. Between the 17th century and the 1980's, when wild boar farming began, only a handful of captive wild boar, imported from the continent as zoo exhibits, were present in Britain. Until very recently, no free-living wild boar (native or introduced) have been present in Britain for the last 300 years.

I think the fact that cases involving wild boar/ feral pigs have been thrown out of court due to the experts proving these animals are non indigenous then I believe they would have the final say.

I would rather be on the side of proving these pests are non indigenous than indigenous in a court of law.

I think it true to say that all wild boar used to start the first boar farms in the UK originated from the stock at London Zoo, that bring the only place where the animals were kept in captivity and there at the time being a total import ban because of disease concerns. So putting aside the issue of crossing in domestic stock to get bigger litters, the source of the original London Zoo stock would be interesting.

 

[megsjockey]

Clarification from the IUCN today:-
It means that the taxon is considered native to an area if it occurs naturally there right now (i.e., resident all year round (past, present and future), or regularly visits the area for breeding purposes or to use other resources – food, resting areas along a migratory route, etc.); or if it has occurred naturally there in the past and but no longer occurs there (i.e., it is regionally extinct from that area or has become extinct across its entire global range).

And therein, yet again you identify the crux of the matter without accepting it. They do not occur here 'naturally' they occur here through human introduction, without which they would not be here. Since I now deem it to be yourself who is being obtuse in the face of the facts. I shall not say anymore on this thread as there is clearly no point. I know, all too well, that 'you can take a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink'

 

[paul k]

In contravention of the agreements entered into in order to obtain the licenses to own. i.e. the 'Intention' not to release is a matter of record, breach of which constitutes an offence.

Not sure about the FoD release but the East Antsey release was by animal liberationists so I don't think it could be said that licence agreements were broken and the release was clearly very deliberate, albeit by third parties.

 

[paul k]

And therein, yet again you identify the crux of the matter without accepting it. They do not occur here 'naturally' they occur here through human introduction, without which they would not be here. Since I now deem it to be yourself who is being obtuse in the face of the facts. I shall not say anymore on this thread as there is clearly no point. I know, all too well, that 'you can take a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink'

Let's hypothetical for a moment, let's suppose that red deer became extinct everywhere in the UK. There was no plan to officially reintroduce them but some escaped from one of the very many deer farms, possibly of non indigenous stock, would they then be non-native?

Under your argument it seems that they would but I think that defies all logic.

 

[timbrayford]

And therein, yet again you identify the crux of the matter without accepting it. They do not occur here 'naturally' they occur here through human introduction, without which they would not be here. Since I now deem it to be yourself who is being obtuse in the face of the facts. I shall not say anymore on this thread as there is clearly no point. I know, all too well, that 'you can take a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink'

Do you have evidence that mankind introduced the Wild Boar during the Mesolithic? If not you have to accept that they are native.

 

[nun_hunter]

Clarification from the IUCN today:-
It means that the taxon is considered native to an area if it occurs naturally there right now (i.e., resident all year round (past, present and future), or regularly visits the area for breeding purposes or to use other resources – food, resting areas along a migratory route, etc.); or if it has occurred naturally there in the past and but no longer occurs there (i.e., it is regionally extinct from that area or has become extinct across its entire global range).

Surely this is the important bit?

 

[megsjockey]

I break my promise once only.

Clarification from the IUCN today:-
It means that the taxon is considered native to an area if it occurs naturally there right now (i.e., resident all year round (past, present and future), or regularly visits the area for breeding purposes or to use other resources – food, resting areas along a migratory route, etc.); or if it has occurred naturally there in the past and but no longer occurs there (i.e., it is regionally extinct from that area or has become extinct across its entire global range).

The above is a multi-clausal sentence. The conditions of first clause have not been met. The second clause is actually gibberish. Nothing can be indigenous where it is extinct. "It was indigenous and it is now extinct", that makes sense but the second clause does not say that. It is gibberish. The wild boar in Britain today could have been properly re-introduced and thereby attained 'native/indigenous' status but they weren't and haven't. Similarly, the fossil record shows Fallow deer as native and yet we accept that our Fallow of today are introduced but they have the good fortune to have become accepted as native. I wish the same fate on wild boar.

indigenous
ɪnˈdɪdʒɪnəs/
adjective
adjective: indigenous

• originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native.

• The UK's current wild boar population neither originated here nor do they occur here naturally. They occur here through the entirely unnatural accident of human intervention and for no other reason.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

tamus, shoosh....

wild boar are wild boar, were native and are back and who cares how?. Your previously banned alter ego's previously went down similar routes and got banned. If it looks like a wild boar, acts like a wild boar, reproduces like a wild boar and tastes like a wild boar it's a wild boar....

... seems obvious really but not to someone who lives for antagonism

 

[FrenchieBoy]

tamus, shoosh....

wild boar are wild boar, were native and are back and who cares how?. Your previously banned alter ego's previously went down similar routes and got banned. If it looks like a wild boar, acts like a wild boar, reproduces like a wild boar and tastes like a wild boar it's a wild boar....

... seems obvious really but not to someone who lives for antagonism

Spot on Paul. Regardless of how they got here is a bit immaterial now. The fact that they are here (In good numbers in certain areas, so I believe) is the real point, as is the need to "control/cull" them - Not that I have ever come across or need to control or cull any in my neck of the woods!
I never imagined that I would start such a long thread with one simple question, but it has been quite educational guys so worthwhile!