Shortening the Fallow Buck season

[baguio]

I can't see that at all ,in forty years of stalking I've never once had the conversation with any off the friends I stalk with that included someone saying I shot a buck because it was worth more ...and to say 80% of stalkers wouldn't stalk if it wasn't money-orientated is an insult ..How many on the SD go out time after time and blank ? , on your thinking they would all jack it in .Most recreational stalkers take the first opportunity that presents because it may well be the only one , and most professional stalkers I would like to think are just that , professional ..

Sorry highseat, but not having that conversation doesn't mean that your friends don't think it. If they actually said it, you would disapprove hence they keep quiet! The fact remains is that money talks and if you're short of a few quid (which most of us are) and two deer are stood in front of you that you're unlikely to see again any time soon, one worth £50 and one worth £100 then many would quickly do the maths and shoot the £100 one. I for one would stalk a lot less if venison wasn't worth anything. If nothing else, my wife wouldn't accept all these early mornings and fuel bills if no/less money hit my bank to cover the costs. You may think that I'm alone but I stalk with several members of this forum and that's how it is for most of us! That's not to say that I would shoot the trophy bucks/stags but I am not too blinkered to think that 80% would, and from being a member of the SD for the last few years I suspect that 80% is a very good estimate.

 

[highseat6.5]

Sorry highseat, but not having that conversation doesn't mean that your friends don't think it. If they actually said it, you would disapprove hence they keep quiet! The fact remains is that money talks and if you're short of a few quid (which most of us are) and two deer are stood in front of you that you're unlikely to see again any time soon, one worth £50 and one worth £100 then many would quickly do the maths and shoot the £100 one. I for one would stalk a lot less if venison wasn't worth anything. If nothing else, my wife wouldn't accept all these early mornings and fuel bills if no/less money hit my bank to cover the costs. You may think that I'm alone but I stalk with several members of this forum and that's how it is for most of us! That's not to say that I would shoot the trophy bucks/stags but I am not too blinkered to think that 80% would, and from being a member of the SD for the last few years I suspect that 80% is a very good estimate.

Baguio, most of the guys I shoot with tend not to shoot that much that money comes into it , I know what they shoot because it normally ends up in my cold room , were it stays until it's butchered or given away to friends , any that gets sold is because my game dealer is collecting and it is easier sometimes just to sell it , it could be there lucky not to need the cash from it and stalk just for the enjoyment they get .With the amount of people looking for and paying for stalking any land that was given up would find plenty of takers that's for sure .Ive just given a permission over to a pal , not big , just a couple of hundred acres but knowing him I bet he's out twice a week minimum, will put up a couple of seats and spend every spare minute over there for what can only ever be a net loss money wise but a big plus in enjoyment ..

 

[Taff]

You hit the nail on the head. I would say 80% of "stalkers" see deer as £ signs. If venison was worth very low money I bet half the people wouldn't even go out.

Worth very low money, ? It's not much more than it was in the 80s, When I was in the UK I would never buy a stalking lease unless it covered my costs, and I mean all of my costs, which mean,t with the larger deer species, I shot what was in front of me, it was a numbers game, with land owners wanting deer gone. Do we need to change the seasons, no, recreational stalkers just need to stop pussyfooting around, and start controlling numbers.

 

[baguio]

Ive just given a permission over to a pal , not big , just a couple of hundred acres but knowing him I bet he's out twice a week minimum, will put up a couple of seats and spend every spare minute over there for what can only ever be a net loss money wise but a big plus in enjoyment.

Whether he makes a profit or loss is irrelevant. This thread has more to do with shooting the correct animal for the good of the herd. Basically, if your friend had a herd of fallow walk passed him, would he shoot the biggest or the smallest first? Big one £100. Small one £50! I maintain that 80% of stalkers on this site would take the big one with herd dynamics being of no interest to them!

 

[paul k]

It's certainly true that fully palmated bucks are very scarce in some areas and are clearly over shot. The point has been well made that it is in the nature of fallow to roam over a wide area that often goes beyond the control of one deer manager and I can sympathise with the stalker that would have spared a good buck but fears that a neighbour might take it and so shoots it while he can.

There is clearly a worry that taking too many master bucks weakens the gene pool but don't overlook the fact that a sorel or sore might turn out to be a master buck a few years later so if younger bucks are serving does it's not necessarily damaging the gene pool, you just don't know.

You could shorten the season but I don't think it addresses the problem if people are concentrating on bucks other than forcing them to shoot does after the end of the buck season if venison sales are the objective. If people don't want to shoot does they're just going to be on the ground less and hitting the bucks harder in the shorter season and as we know with fallow that could just result in moving them off the ground.

 

[highseat6.5]

Whether he makes a profit or loss is irrelevant. This thread has more to do with shooting the correct animal for the good of the herd. Basically, if your friend had a herd of fallow walk passed him, would he shoot the biggest or the smallest first? Big one £100. Small one £50! I maintain that 80% of stalkers on this site would take the big one with herd dynamics being of no interest to them!

He would with out doubt do the right thing , that's why I passed this permission on to him , I'm disappointed if 80% of the SD members would just shoot the biggest animal regardless , perhaps I was wrong in my belief the SD members were better than that ..

 

[woodmaster]

It is very difficult as a recreational stalker to do "the right thing". I travel over 400 miles for my stalking, sometimes I go for 3 or 4 days and blank. That's life. I still enjoy being out, learning the ground, finding new places etc. However sometimes I have come across deer and they've been the only deer seen in a few days. I have had times where really nice prime hinds have been in front of me and I've thought perhaps I should leave these for another day, and on a few occasions I have let them walk. However I'm in a syndicate, so will the others do the same? Will I see any other deer while I'm up there? Do I need to save these deer or are we needing to make a cull?
It would be great to be in control of some stalking where I knew what was being shot and what I wanted to shoot, but unfortunately for many of us that's just a pipe dream.
Unfortunately I've never had the problem of shooting too many trophy heads. I've shot a few stags but nothing anyone else would consider a trophy.

I do worry when I read guys are trying to "make" their money back out of venison. This must make them take decisions for a financial reason rather than sound management. If their wife want's to see that they are covering the cost of their stalking. It's a hobby and costs money! If you've got to get you costs back out of shooting x deer, that puts pressure on you to find a deer (any deer) and get it on the floor. How is that a hobby or enjoyable?

I would suggest to those in this situation you would get far more enjoyment out of doing less stalking that you CAN afford rather than more stalking that you have to justify it's cost by shooting anything you see.

I guess the high cost of leases has a part to play both in syndicate's and for those outfitters who pay for their ground. This has to be passed on to the end man, either by charging big money to stalk a few trophies or by stalking the ground far more than is favorable. It all comes down our old nemesis "money".

 

[Taff]

Woodmaster what is sound management, most stalkers would not have enough ground to make a management decision on fallow or red.
as to being under pressure to put deer on the floor, There is no pressure you just do it, the enjoyment comes out of knowing your ground, and having a high success rate, of course this is relevant to where you are in the country, in the south I would expect a stalker to average at least 2 deer per stalk in areas of high fallow / red numbers

 

[baguio]

He would with out doubt do the right thing , that's why I passed this permission on to him , I'm disappointed if 80% of the SD members would just shoot the biggest animal regardless , perhaps I was wrong in my belief the SD members were better than that ..

Good on him if he does do the right thing and good on you for giving him the ground. I hope it works out for him and it doesn't cost him too much to do the right thing.
Regarding the 80% thing. How else can you explain all of the posts with pictures of massive fallow bucks posted on here. Were they really the most suitable bucks to take from the herd? I very much doubt it?
We have a similar situation where huge roe bucks are taken before the rut. When questioned about the logic of taking it, I have had the answer that there are bigger bucks on the ground when I'm looking at pictures of Gold medals. B##l ###t! Deer management didn't come into it. £s and trophies drive many on here and those who don't get out too often simply shoot what is in front of them regardless. Fact!

 

[baguio]

It is very difficult as a recreational stalker to do "the right thing". I travel over 400 miles for my stalking, sometimes I go for 3 or 4 days and blank. That's life. I still enjoy being out, learning the ground, finding new places etc. However sometimes I have come across deer and they've been the only deer seen in a few days. I have had times where really nice prime hinds have been in front of me and I've thought perhaps I should leave these for another day, and on a few occasions I have let them walk. However I'm in a syndicate, so will the others do the same? Will I see any other deer while I'm up there? Do I need to save these deer or are we needing to make a cull?

I do worry when I read guys are trying to "make" their money back out of venison. This must make them take decisions for a financial reason rather than sound management. If their wife want's to see that they are covering the cost of their stalking. It's a hobby and costs money! If you've got to get you costs back out of shooting x deer, that puts pressure on you to find a deer (any deer) and get it on the floor. How is that a hobby or enjoyable?

I would suggest to those in this situation you would get far more enjoyment out of doing less stalking that you CAN afford rather than more stalking that you have to justify it's cost by shooting anything you see.

I guess the high cost of leases has a part to play both in syndicate's and for those outfitters who pay for their ground. This has to be passed on to the end man, either by charging big money to stalk a few trophies or by stalking the ground far more than is favorable. It all comes down our old nemesis "money".

Lots of good points there woodmaster. However, who said that a hobby should cost money? Don't think for one minute that I only shoot for the money because that is not the case. However, I am paid to shoot deer (therefore stalking less is not an option) and the employer has every right to expect results for his money. Whilst we certainly don't aim to shoot the best animals we do try to put deer on the floor and that venison pays for fuel and my equipment therefore keeping me from digging too deeply into the house keeping pot!
Another point regarding the cost of venison. I very much hope that venison prices don't go down as then we have a serious situation where deer are considered as vermin by more people. That would not be good at all!

 

[jamross65]

Worth very low money, ? It's not much more than it was in the 80s, When I was in the UK I would never buy a stalking lease unless it covered my costs, and I mean all of my costs, which mean,t with the larger deer species, I shot what was in front of me, it was a numbers game, with land owners wanting deer gone. Do we need to change the seasons, no, recreational stalkers just need to stop pussyfooting around, and start controlling numbers.

Totally agree.

 

[tusker]

Perhaps people selling stalking could sell doe culling without a shot fee for example £100 per day shoot as many as you like. There is a company round here that I feel you have to pay to do their cull. Professional stalkers must get out there and cull.
Tusker

 

[baguio]

Perhaps people selling stalking could sell doe culling without a shot fee for example £100 per day shoot as many as you like. There is a company round here that I feel you have to pay to do their cull. Professional stalkers must get out there and cull.
Tusker

There is a company around most of us that you pay to do their cull. It's called the Forestry Commission. However don't kid yourself that the company you're talking about needs your assistance. They do however need your money to balance the books. Would those books balance if one person went out and shot a bag full for £100 and therefore finished the cull in a day? Of cause they wouldn't!

 

[berg]

When I go out witch is alot I always target the does as I sell it though the shop and I would much rather be selling a nice little fat piece of venison then some screwy old buck ,infact I would rather shoot three muntjac then a big buck,.so alot will come down to what stalkers intend to do with the venison if it's for eating then anyone who knows anything will be after the does .we were turning buck away last year as we didn't what smelly rutty buck for are shop trade and I hope they remember that this year .we have stopped on the bucks on are land for a while and just been shoot the does

 

[highseat6.5]

Regarding the 80% thing. How else can you explain all of the posts with pictures of massive fallow bucks posted on here. Were they really the most suitable bucks to take from the herd? I very much doubt it?
We have a similar situation where huge roe bucks are taken before the rut. When questioned about the logic of taking it, I have had the answer that there are bigger bucks on the ground when I'm looking at pictures of Gold medals. B##l ###t! Deer management didn't come into it. £s and trophies drive many on here and those who don't get out too often simply shoot what is in front of them regardless. Fact!

I certainly couldn't argue the with your thoughts on trophy hunting and deer management .While I've never shot for the money I've shot even less for the trophy ..a couple of unusual heads is about it , nothing that would be classed as quality ! ..but I did finish my doe cull end of Feb .

 

[norma 308]

im reading about recreational stalkers and managment and costs ect ect do any of us really manage the deer population if the estate sets the cull figure or the forestry what is shot within that figure ultimately depends on what's on the ground at the same time as you are but what happens when you've not reached the cull figure toward the end of the lease and are well short of the cull figure and the bad boy roe or fallow steps out hmmm glad I'm only a recreational who's never had a lease or pressure to procure that cull figure .the recreational stalker isn't the problem here stalking itself is the problem because its turned into a money spinner for good or bad depending on which side of the fence you stand on .I can live with myself I've 2 fallow and 3 muntys in the chiller that my pals and I shot not because we need the cash but the little we do get back. certainly wouldn't come anywhere near what our "hobby" addiction costs and we wouldn't want it to .guns ammo clothing 4x4 s dog chiller .
I've been offered payment to shoot deer something that is totally alien to me as a RS then I felt like an assassin we RS 's are used to paying you know not that I've been so tight as to add it up but far far more than the little bit I've ever had back .l and my recreational stalking mates do a good job we ain't the problem.
back to the op my pals and I have left big bucks for as long as I've stalked and before that but shot poor sorrels and prickets and of cause every doe and doe fawn in season we could except the old white collared doe .no big bucks were shot in the rut only the odd satellite buck did we ever see more big bucks on the ground no they move off and come back for the does in the rut but a similar amount each year .to reduce the population the does should always be the target. I don't think the big bucks are any cleverer than a sorrel or a pricket its just they disappear off the ground and we didn't shoot em when they where on it .
how many decent prickets get shot though that would have made fantastic bucks ?
anyway happy hunting and long live deer stocks and the recreational deer stalker .
Norma

 

[6pointer]

Totally agree.

I cant agree more Jamros lmfao stobo was the supplier of SIKA to the peebles area for years and I am sure as a rec stalker your self you know you could have done better. LMAO.Why not all get a lamp and kill kill kill.