Stock design for moving targets

[enfieldspares]

If you are in a fixed stand, making passing shots, rather than shooting jumped or charging game, you may find that a more closed grip is better..

Now that's an American "brush" deer hunter talking there? Someone who shoots standing up as his quarry walks past. I think? And that's interesting as yes I can't disagree. I had never thought about it Southern until you posted this. Yet on the classic "Brit" stalking rifle the grip is much more open. Because I'm suggesting as we by custom shot our deer whilst lying on our bellies for us an open grip works better. I had never thought of that. That's very to the point Southern and does explain a lot about the closed grips on your USA "custom" makers of American market hunting rifles as against more open grips on bespoke "Brit" rifles made for the UK market. And why all those P-Hale rifles made for the USA market, but also sold here, always seemed to have a grip curve like a horse's hoof!

 

[Southern]

Now that's an American "brush" deer hunter talking there? Someone who shoots standing up as his quarry walks past. I think? And that's interesting as yes I can't disagree. I had never thought about it Southern until you posted this. Yet on the classic "Brit" stalking rifle the grip is much more open. Because I'm suggesting as we by custom shot our deer whilst lying on our bellies for us an open grip works better. I had never thought of that. That's very to the point Southern and does explain a lot about the closed grips on your USA "custom" makers of American market hunting rifles as against more open grips on bespoke "Brit" rifles made for the UK market. And why all those P-Hale rifles made for the USA market, but also sold here, always seemed to have a grip curve like a horse's hoof!

I was thinking more of deer drives, in the South, where deer and boar are pushed out of thick woods towards stand hunters. Large tracks of timber for logging in very flat Low Country land will be divided by logging roads into blocks, 1/4 mile on each side. A single driver with something like a Browning A5 12 gauge loaded with 00 Buckshot will slowly work with disciplined hounds, pushing, not chasing, deer and boar to move across these roads.

Hunters will be posted 100 yards apart, with shotguns, and narrow lanes of safe fire.

Think also of a boar hunter on a high stand in Germany, looking down a road, where wild pigs are being pushed down their trails, running across that road. He has to make a longs swing, picking them up with his iron sights or red-dot sight on a rifle, and be on for the shot as his chosen target leaps into the clearing, squeeze the trigger, and follow through. He might be better served by a more closed grip and higher comb with more weight forward, like a sporting clays or trap shooter would prefer.

The still hunter in big open woods will move very slowly, alone or with a companion, taking turns moving and mostly stopping to look. The shot they get will be more like flushed pheasant, going away at an angle. No much swinging; more like pointing out ahead of the moving target and mounting the rifle and firing almost subconsciously, as the sight locks on "the spot". A straight stock lever action or a more traditional rifle of the 1930s - American, German, or British - with open grip and thin fore end putting your lead hand close to the barrel, is fast, like a Churchill XXV.

 

[enfieldspares]

Thank you for that Southern. Don't get them all started here on shooting at deer with shotguns. Some will get upset. Even though my father's generation and the previous one to that did so with roe deer if one came through the line of guns. In fact to them on most game shoots roe deer were considered vermin. Now with woodland stalking popular in the UK which is like your still hunting roe are considered another potential valuable resource.

 

[kenbro]

Thank you for that Southern. Don't get them all started here on shooting at deer with shotguns. Some will get upset. Even though my father's generation and the previous one to that did so with roe deer if one came through the line of guns. In fact to them on most game shoots roe deer were considered vermin. Now with woodland stalking popular in the UK which is like your still hunting roe are considered another potential valuable resource.

enfieldspares,
I remember those days...Near Lockerbie, bring what you have chaps, shotgun, rifle or other!
Gamekeeper would position the guns on the edge of the woods/forest 50 yards apart, facing away from the woods.
Local lads with variaty of dogs would walk through woods from far side making much noise to drive the roe out between the guns. I remember they sometimes sounded like horses as they approached from behind.
Anyone who shot foxes, and there were several, got a bollocking and no more invites.
Where we were positioned, back to woods and facing meadow land we could sometimes see another wood several hundred yards away and deer would be driven out of there, across the meadow and to the waiting guns.

As you say, the owner of this estate looked on the deer as vermin, not to be managed, but exterminated. He didn't want ANY deer on his land.
His hobby was fox hunting, hence no fox shooting.
This was in the 1970s.
Ken.
Ps. Whatever you shot was yours to keep, no fees to shoot and no charge for meat or head.

 

[Orion]

...................................... but the Helix beats the R8 for driven every time.

For fast handling I just do not see any sense in a thumb hole stock. Any direction the hand should go the thumb is "trapped".

For scoped rifles this works for me. Comb quite high and compromise pistol grip.

No coincidence there then?

 

[ejg]

The stock in my pick earlier I shaped the pattern by hand for a Tikka T3 inlet. The comb is so high that a cleaning rod can just be inserted and one can just bore sight. This design can't be used on all actions. Meaning the mechanical design of a rifle can dictate what options you have in stock design. For example an R8 cannot go into the Multipurpose stock. The stock on an R8 must be much lower in the comb and possibly the recoil pad which leads to more muzzle flip and the scope line might be too high. Recon an R8 would need an adjustable comb to solve one problem.
A few months back we made a sporter prototype that would take an R8 in theorie, and most other actions including Schultz& Larsen. The pistol grip stayed the same because the feedback was so positive. Recoil pad top spot is roughly the same as the multipurpose T3 stock and has the adjustable comb to make up for the lower comb. I use this prototype for lamping at night and long range plinking/crows. Not sure yet if it will go in production.

edi

 

[Greener Jim]

Loads to think about there and very much a split of opinion. I prefer more vertical grips, maybe not full pistol mind more like a McMillan A3/A5 or a GRS Berserk. With the thumb not being enclosed I think they'll be plenty fast for getting to the bolt.
There just isn't much info about shooting rifles like this offhand let alone at running game.

As for the shotgun argument, I think it's largely due to the different shooting angle that is involved but I really wouldn't know.
With the big names in English custom rifles (Rigby et al) I think it's a traditional thing, even if a more vertical grip was better it would be less attractive to the majority of their clientele so would be tricky to sell.
I have heard the argument that too tight a curve on the grip can lead to the middle finger hitting the trigger guard under recoil on the big boomers and this seems feasible, that been said many rifles with such grips are chambered in heavy recoiling long range cartridges so maybe not so much of a concern. Long range rigs usually weigh a fair amount and are shot prone though so doesn't really give a definitive answer either way.

I guess I'm going to have to just build one and get to a driven boat range.

 

[Jagare]

I guess I'm going to have to just build one and get to a driven boat range.

Jim, whats this running boat shooting you talk of. Are they row boats, speed boats or more like liners .
Will my rifle be suitable for this sport.

 

[Greener Jim]

Hahahaha damn autocorrect! Anyway, no it wouldn't as it doesn't have a pronounced pistol grip

 

[jthyttin]

I prefer more vertical grips, maybe not full pistol mind more like a McMillan A3/A5 or a GRS Berserk. With the thumb not being enclosed I think they'll be plenty fast for getting to the bolt.
There just isn't much info about shooting rifles like this offhand let alone at running game.

In the contrary. All serious competitors in hunting related shooting disciplines use stocks with vertical (shooting hand) grip, usually dubbed as "sporter", "target" or some such. Like:

T3x SPORTER | Tikka

E.g. here in Finland national disciplines include stationary capercaillie 100m, running moose 100m. In addition there's Nordic and European disciplines (running wild boar 50m, stationary roe and wild boar 100m). These were the offhand targets, there's also some supported positions.

In all the disciplines there's plenty of time to mount the rifle, and no actual reason to control the recoil. So stock design includes the vertical grip, low "belly" (for support hand) and sometimes extremely high scope mounts (again to bring stock closer to support hand). Shooting position is leaning backwards for skeletal support for the rifle.