Forest of Dean Boar - Hunt Sabs

[ileso]

Won't there be a moderating effect because of the habitat destruction, feed loss, etc. due to the catastrophic fires?

this year was a very good year for acorns, the chestnuts and other nuts suffered a bit because of the lack of rain. but theres plenty of food. but you are right theres not as much choice as there should be due to the severe drought. Theres also very little water for the animals to drink, some rivers have run dry.
what the fires and drought did was concentrate their numbers in the forest areas that didnt burn and that have some moisure, be that a creek or springwater. Around me the forest hasnt burt in over 15years (fingers crossed i hope I didnt jinx myself) and the forest is quite dense, with lots of cover (like it should be). It burnt all around here so all the boar have concentrated in the same place... this isnt a good thing as the population will reduce drastically due to over hunting (and poaching) ..

but I was referring to your situation in the FOD. when I said about numbers exploding. mild weather, lots of acorn, plenty food.. its like spring there. pigs breed all year given the right conditions.

 

[ileso]

So how many Boar can the FOD accommodate and be in balance with the environment?

depends on what you consider balance. adding some wolves might help balance things out... the wild boar as things stand is at the top of the food chain in the forest if we dont consider the panthers and tigers

 

[Scotty99]

Doesn't look like they are being kept in check though, does it.

The reason I posted this was to counter the antis view that All the pigs in FOD are being systematically killed. They confuse the word cull with the word exterminate. I'm not interested in the exact numbers they are probably incorrect (apart from the number shot) but what it does show is that the trend is a growing population despite the increasing numbers being shot. I know discussions like this with hard line antis is a waste of time, but there will be some on the fringes who might be prepared to listen to an discussion along the lines of culling to trim the population based on these numbers, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[ileso]

maybe it doesn't show an increase in numbers but maybe a a better system of counting? Its very hard to have a correct estimate of numbers without having a very dedicated team of trackers keeping tabs on the different sounders. then theres the males that tend to roam solitary or with a squire. the males will be the hardest to keep tabs on.

 

[timbrayford]

depends on what you consider balance. adding some wolves might help balance things out... the wild boar as things stand is at the top of the food chain in the forest if we dont consider the panthers and tigers

Mankind is perfectly capable of managing the Boar without complicating things with reintroducing other apex predators. But surely the basis of any sustainable management plan is some idea of what sort of density of Boar the FOD will support within the parameters of the richest biodiversity.

 

[ileso]

Mankind is perfectly capable of managing the Boar without complicating things with reintroducing other apex predators. But surely the basis of any sustainable management plan is some idea of what sort of density of Boar the FOD will support within the parameters of the richest biodiversity.

.. i was joking about the wolves...
.

 

[jubnut]

Mankind is perfectly capable of managing the Boar without complicating things with reintroducing other apex predators. But surely the basis of any sustainable management plan is some idea of what sort of density of Boar the FOD will support within the parameters of the richest biodiversity.

And how would anybody go about coming to that figure?

And do the same for the deer... and the sheep...

Not practical.

Can you tell me what density of deer any of your woodlands can support within the parameters of the richest biodiversity please?

 

[joed]

The reason I posted this was to counter the antis view that All the pigs in FOD are being systematically killed. They confuse the word cull with the word exterminate. I'm not interested in the exact numbers they are probably incorrect (apart from the number shot) but what it does show is that the trend is a growing population despite the increasing numbers being shot. I know discussions like this with hard line antis is a waste of time, but there will be some on the fringes who might be prepared to listen to an discussion along the lines of culling to trim the population based on these numbers, but I won't hold my breath.

I also think when you get into the Sab mindset and motivation wildlife protection isn't necessarily the core motivator for some of them and as such there can be no reasoning. They cant/won't listen to the need for population management.

 

[timbrayford]

And how would anybody go about coming to that figure?

And do the same for the deer... and the sheep...

Not practical.

Can you tell me what density of deer any of your woodlands can support within the parameters of the richest biodiversity please?

Across the Isle of Wight roughly 350-700 depending on species and season, obviously with higher numbers in the Summer/Autumn.

But let's not get too hung up on numbers anyway, impacts have to be considered just as relevant, e.g. Too few deer and you start to lose other woodland species, vigorous vegetation starts to dominate and a proliferation of Sycamore and Bramble shades out other ground flora which leads to a loss of nectar rich plants, the Lepidoptera that feed on them and in turn the Bats that feed on these Butterflies and Moths. Locally there are issues with species as varied as Ancient Lichens and Tawny Owls being adversely affected. Conversely areas with over populations of deer on the mainland suffer from distinctive browse lines and a denuded understorey with the resultant loss of dependent species.

Its a complex issue that doesn't appear to respond that well to heavy handed conjecture based wildlife management. Although deer densities and environmental impacts have been subject to a great deal of scientific research across the temperate zone the same does not appear to be true for Boar, rather surprising given their potential reproductive ability.

 

[jubnut]

Across the Isle of Wight roughly 350-700 depending on species and season, obviously with higher numbers in the Summer/Autumn.

But let's not get too hung up on numbers anyway, impacts have to be considered just as relevant, e.g. Too few deer and you start to lose other woodland species, vigorous vegetation starts to dominate and a proliferation of Sycamore and Bramble shades out other ground flora which leads to a loss of nectar rich plants, the Lepidoptera that feed on them and in turn the Bats that feed on these Butterflies and Moths. Locally there are issues with species as varied as Ancient Lichens and Tawny Owls being adversely affected. Conversely areas with over populations of deer on the mainland suffer from distinctive browse lines and a denuded understorey with the resultant loss of dependent species.

Its a complex issue that doesn't appear to respond that well to heavy handed conjecture based wildlife management. Although deer densities and environmental impacts have been subject to a great deal of scientific research across the temperate zone the same does not appear to be true for Boar, rather surprising given their potential reproductive ability.

Hold on. You said that a management plan has to start with an idea of what density of boar the FOD can handle, now you say lets not get too hung up on numbers?

How do you come to a figure of 350-700 deer as an optimum for the entire IOW? What have you used to come to that figure?

You say yourself that there isn't the scientific research on boar with regards to population densities and environmental impacts, do you suggest then, given that a cull plan can't start without this information that all culling of wild boar cease until this research has been carried out?

 

[ileso]

I think its not just what the forest can handle as of itself, but also what is acceptable as far as damage to crops etc...even if theres food in the forest boar will move on crops in any given area. they have good noses and can travel many km in a single night... 15, 20, 25 km depending on their disposition.. this is why its hard to keep tabs on numbers unless there is a very dedicated group of hunters that are capable of tracking individual sounders.
they will arrive at a number thats unacceptable to the farmers well before they exceed the forests capability of supporting them.
I dont know how the forestry arrives at numbers but it seems a bit off handed... if not done tracking sounders then my bet is all numbers are way off... especially factoring in the males that, like I said, run around mostly by themselves.

 

[timbrayford]

Hold on. You said that a management plan has to start with an idea of what density of boar the FOD can handle, now you say lets not get too hung up on numbers?

How do you come to a figure of 350-700 deer as an optimum for the entire IOW? What have you used to come to that figure?

You say yourself that there isn't the scientific research on boar with regards to population densities and environmental impacts, do you suggest then, given that a cull plan can't start without this information that all culling of wild boar cease until this research has been carried out?

1. Estimated numbers have to be cross referenced with both impacts and indexing, ultimately it gets down to whether these impacts are positive or negative i.e. increase or decrease in species diversity and whether the situation is stable , worsening or improving.

2. Deer on I.W. - Scientific research indicates beneficial deer densities at around 5-7 deer /km2 of woodland with a threshold for damage at around 14 deer/km2. With around 60 km2 of woodland on the island that equates roughly to the figures stated, but you also have to give due allowance to seasonal factors, e.g. more deer after breeding, variation between feed consumption of the various deer species etc. Historic records from the 18th century suggest that local deer capacity may be slightly higher at 16/km2 of woodland.

3. How do you discover optimum densities for Boar, simple but time consuming. You have to set up trial plots with known densities of Boar starting from zero upwards. This has been done for deer in the New Forest at the Denny Pens inclosure, Trinity College Dublin have done likewise by studying a plot that deer were excluded from for over 40 years and documenting the resultant loss of species.

4. Regarding Boar densities data from Bialowieza indicate that 3.8/ km2 of woodland as a natural sustainable density, especially bearing mind the presence of other wild ungulates. Taking at face value published figures of 110km2 woodland in the FOD that gives a guide figure for a Boar population of around 400 animals. But ultimately you have to look at the environmental impacts.

 

[ileso]

Boar are actually very good for forests... they till the soil and help fertilise

 

[mereside]

Mankind is perfectly capable of managing the Boar without complicating things with reintroducing other apex predators. But surely the basis of any sustainable management plan is some idea of what sort of density of Boar the FOD will support within the parameters of the richest biodiversity.

Wild boar can not be managed they will continue to increase, I have spoken to people in Sweden who did the first surveys on population increase and there government laughed at the figures spoken and the prediction was far greater than first thought, the same in Germany and throughout Europe, over 500,000 are shot in Germany alone and are far in advance of any real management than us, it will steadily rise till a point then a population explosion will acure just like every other country that has wild boar, Atb wayne

 

[Jagare]

Wild boar can not be managed they will continue to increase, I have spoken to people in Sweden who did the first surveys on population increase and there government laughed at the figures spoken and the prediction was far greater than first thought, the same in Germany and throughout Europe, over 500,000 are shot in Germany alone and are far in advance of any real management than us, it will steadily rise till a point then a population explosion will acure just like every other country that has wild boar, Atb wayne

There used to be the same underestimation of the number of boar in Sweden just like the UK today. About 6,maybe more years ago a chap wrote an piece in one of our hunting mags predicting the the expansion in numbers of boar.He was right on the ball apart from 2 consecutive hard winters, the coldest winters in a hundred years that knocked back the boar population a bit. He predicted we would shoot more boar than moose , over 90000 moose shot in Sweden. Reported numbers of boar shot went past moose shot a couple of years ago. Its not a requirement in law to reports boar you have shot. So the numbers i would think are well above 100000 annually. Just in the county i live in its gone from single figures to about 6000 boar shot in not many years.

 

[ileso]

let them thrive.

 

[JTO]

let them thrive.

One way of making stalking more accessible, though that doesn't seem to have happened with Roe deer.

 

[timbrayford]

Wild boar can not be managed they will continue to increase, I have spoken to people in Sweden who did the first surveys on population increase and there government laughed at the figures spoken and the prediction was far greater than first thought, the same in Germany and throughout Europe, over 500,000 are shot in Germany alone and are far in advance of any real management than us, it will steadily rise till a point then a population explosion will acure just like every other country that has wild boar, Atb wayne

Food for thought though, wild Boar were exterminated in the UK in the days of bows & arrows & spears.

 

[mereside]

Food for thought though, wild Boar were exterminated in the UK in the days of bows & arrows & spears.

where they though or did something else happen, if they were exterminated how come know body can elsewhere

 

[mereside]

There used to be the same underestimation of the number of boar in Sweden just like the UK today. About 6,maybe more years ago a chap wrote an piece in one of our hunting mags predicting the the expansion in numbers of boar.He was right on the ball apart from 2 consecutive hard winters, the coldest winters in a hundred years that knocked back the boar population a bit. He predicted we would shoot more boar than moose , over 90000 moose shot in Sweden. Reported numbers of boar shot went past moose shot a couple of years ago. Its not a requirement in law to reports boar you have shot. So the numbers i would think are well above 100000 annually. Just in the county i live in its gone from single figures to about 6000 boar shot in not many years.

those are the same guys I spoke with but by the second year the boar learned to adapt,numbers recovered atb wayne