Countryfile and Firearm Licensing

They do themselves no favours by ‘welcoming’ every new imposition on shooters. Whoever writes their PR cannot have an idea how that sticks in the craw of firearms owners who’ve suffered adverse legislation again and again.
... and continue so to suffer!

Additonally, BASC did for a while seem to be getting rather cosy the police and the Home Office. That might, of course, be seen as a good thing. However, those two organisations have between them decades of experience in double-speak and chicanery directed at shafting the firearms-owning public - and notwithstanding their apparent want of competence or knowledge, these are things at which they very good indeed.

Indeed, the only benefit to us seems to have been the reversal of the S5/expanding bullet error: please note, the reversal of an error, and that many years after it was originally made.

Convenient as it is, I'm not sure that it makes up for the current position with repsect to medical records - far worse in Scotland than it is currently in most of the rest of the UK - but we shall see.
 
BASC will have a 'fighting fund' - last count it was circa £9M which is why (I suspect) Mr Jarred wanted to buy land for wildfowlers. The NGO carried out a special 'call for funding' for the buzzard case and were fully funded - they didnt need all of it because they won.
BASC should know its on solid legal ground here as it was involved in the negotiations which resulted in this mess, initially hailing it as a success (dont they always). Equally it is their membership and no-one esle who relies on SGC/FAC so no excuse for inaction there. However CA has taken up the case and is circulating all MP's - I have filled in mine - they did this before with the Andy Marsh 'shop a shooter' )from memory and received a climb - down letter. BASC rode on their coat tails then but it cuts no ice with me.
There is a phrase 'first into the fray, last out of it' If this doesnt fit for BASC then may they lose all their membership because they deserve to. Good on 'yer CA we needed someone.
Please recognise this a personal view and BASC may well be your idol - sorry.
 
Who is talking about a judicial review?
A chap I know has recently won an appeal at Crown Court against his certificates being revoked and it cost less than £2000. BASC recommended the barrister, but that was all.
That sounds a realistic sum on the lower end of the scale, however if the appeal had been dismissed the bill may have been considerably more.

Before an appeal to the Crown Court can be made there must have been a refusal by the police to grant/renew/vary a firearm or shotgun certificate. The grounds for such a refusal (or revocation) must be stated by the police. Not unless and until such time as a refusal (etc.) on the grounds of this current medical report debacle, has been delivered (to a BASC member) could BASC consider launching an appeal. I do not know whether such refusal has been made yet.

In the absence of such a refusal (etc.) BASC nor any other shooting organisation or individual would not have a case to appeal.

In the absence of an appeal as outlined above, processes or procedures that are unfair/unjust/unlawful etc. etc. can be taken to judicial review.

Sooner or later, if the police actually refuse to grant/renew/vary/etc. a firearm or shotgun certificate, on the grounds that the applicant would not pay for a medical report, I am confident that one of the organisations will jump at the chance of an appeal to the Crown Court.

Assuming the appeal to be allowed, such a decision would not be binding on other courts nor would it set a precedent for other appeals.
Having said that, it would certainly cause the police to take due notice.
Furthermore, the police could decide to appeal against that decision, which would place the matter in the higher courts. That is where Crown Court costs pale into insignificance, particularly if the hearing is protracted.

I hope this is helpful as it is based on considerable practical experience and a fair summary of the situation as I understand it.:tiphat:
 
They do themselves no favours by ‘welcoming’ every new imposition on shooters. Whoever writes their PR cannot have an idea how that sticks in the craw of firearms owners who’ve suffered adverse legislation again and again.
Fair comment. I too have wondered at some of the communications and winced at one or two.
 
Right, so everyone is whining! WHY, because you don't think your selected representatives are doing what you (we) want them to do. So either vote with your feet or get involved and tell them what you expect. Let's set them a target, the Home Office Guidance Notes, one of the shooting organisations should start a petition, That the UK shooting community want the Police force to follow those notes precisely without putting their being able to put their own slant on them, how? by making them MANDATORY. The UK Police force are charged with Law Enforcement NOT with law making or interpretation! If this is impractical then the system must be centralised under one body, after all the DLVA can issue how many HGV driving licences per day?, the CAA can issue Pilots' licences etc, so it can be done, and if some police employees complain, well we are reducing their work-load and removing the FEO's to another body, so where is the problem? Where will they work from, well there's all those empty closed police stations for a start! There must be a standard set for FEOs and they are to be trained to that standard. We will get the usual argument about software development delays and costs, -so do as SA did, buy the NZ model!
I think we need 100'000, or is it 150'000? signatures to get it debated in the House of Commons, that is less than BASCs' membership, so with the CA, NGO, the unaffiliated shooters etc we should be able to get more than enough to get something done. But be aware that we may end up with more regulation and/or costs, but at least it will be uniformly applied, and not subject to somebodies' whim!
Right so send an e-mail to your organisation demanding that a petition is started, or you will join the organisation that does. Personally I believe that it would carry even more weight if it was a joint effort by all the Shooting Bodies. But they must be agreed on a common agenda before they start!
Come on David BASC be pro-active, give us some hints.
I apologise if I have stamped on any-ones corns.
 
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The Crime and Policing Act 2017 gives the Home Secretary the power to issue statutory guidance on firearms licensing which chiefs of police are obliged to follow except in exceptional circumstances.
There is a new HO Guidance document (which will be statutory) being developed at this time, but has not yet been published.
Until the new statutory guidance comes into effect, the variability between different police forces handling of firearms/shotgun licensing will continue.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...tsheet_16b_-_Firearms__guidance_and_fees_.pdf

If anyone has any indication of when the new statutory guidance is to be issued please let us know!!

Cheers

Bruce
 
Right, so everyone is whining! WHY, because you don't think your selected representatives are doing what you (we) want them to do. So either vote with your feet or get involved and tell them what you expect. Let's set them a target, the Home Office Guidance Notes, one of the shooting organisations should start a petition,
<snip>
I apologise if I have stamped on any-ones corns.

Well unfortunately they did - they had a petition last year ... and the 'majority' said it was OK to pay (not me to be clear), in fact the SACS Director (Alex Stoddart) nearly got himself sacked as he insisted that his members should NOT pay the GP's and his membership disagreed, so strongly that he almost lost his job and was forced to do a U turn.

In his words "I made a mistake in assuming our members would not pay a fee. I had some dreadful verbal abuse over that. So our position is that fees are currently a matter between a patient and a GP, but that this is largely unfair and the Home Office should sort this fees situation out. "

Dr Colin Shedden (BASC Scotland) who ran the petition told me that he was not pursuing Police Scotland as his membere were "happy to pay", BASC adopted this stance nationwide and have done nothing about it at all, quite rightly as like SACS, BASC has a mandate to obey the wishes of the membership.

Yes there are grumbles, yes (in my opinion) it is wrong and tantamount to coercion and blackmail but the reality is that most people (over 80% I beleive) are "happy to pay" .... BASC, SACS and the CA are doing a lot for the shooting community but unfortunately they are not trying to reverse this situation as their members have said they don't want them to. (Perhaps BASC David you would care to comment on this ?)
 
Right, so everyone is whining! WHY, because you don't think your selected representatives are doing what you (we) want them to do. So either vote with your feet or get involved and tell them what you expect. Let's set them a target, the Home Office Guidance Notes, one of the shooting organisations should start a petition, That the UK shooting community want the Police force to follow those notes precisely without putting their being able to put their own slant on them, how? by making them MANDATORY..

The mechanism appears to be already there with the recently amended S55A(4) of the Firearms Act 1968.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/3/section/133/enacted

Then again it might be wise to simply ‘advise’ and ‘assist’ until shooting sports disappear down the plug hole.
 
You are correct that BASC is an organisation run by its members, and with a large membership its tricky to please all the people all the time as I am sure you all appreciate. This situation regarding fees is fluid to say the least and all the current guidance from BASC is published on our web site, so please keep an eye on it.
Best wishes
David
 
Dr Colin Shedden (BASC Scotland) who ran the petition told me that he was not pursuing Police Scotland as his members were "happy to pay", BASC adopted this stance nationwide and have done nothing about it at all, quite rightly as like SACS, BASC has a mandate to obey the wishes of the membership.

Yes there are grumbles, yes (in my opinion) it is wrong and tantamount to coercion and blackmail but the reality is that most people (over 80% I beleive) are "happy to pay" .... BASC, SACS and the CA are doing a lot for the shooting community but unfortunately they are not trying to reverse this situation as their members have said they don't want them to. (Perhaps BASC David you would care to comment on this ?)

You are correct that BASC is an organisation run by its members, and with a large membership its tricky to please all the people all the time as I am sure you all appreciate. This situation regarding fees is fluid to say the least and all the current guidance from BASC is published on our web site, so please keep an eye on it.
Best wishes
David

You should be a politician David :cool:
 
You should be a politician David :cool:

Interesting that the CA and NGO dont have the same issues with'choice' as BASC.
CA have may other types of member, maybe -its just they see a problem and, on behalf of their membership dont need a 'poll' to deal with it. e,g, 'shop a shooter' which BASC later claimed as their success.
NGO do seem to KNOW what their members want (Buzzards et al). Something to do with being customer focussed in both cases.
BASC perhaps believes it makes less mistakes by 'hanging - back', even though they were at the initial discussions, claimed the 10 year bonus (without any foundation) and should, you would have thought, been the first to pick this up.
 
There seems to be a singular lack of leadership on this issue to me from all of the shooting organisations. They'll happily take your money and make non-committal comments such as "it's a complex issue....fluid....not all our members agree" type of thing which to me are just weasel words. HO guidance is crystal clear if read in the spirit intended; the law as it currently stands is crystal clear, so why the weasel words? We need organisations to take the bull by the horns and provide genuine leadership and action in the form of open letters as well as direct letters citing these facts and the dangers to shooters' rights of this continuing whittling down of our current legal freedoms and rights. These are not privileges, as some people seem to think, but RIGHTS that are being slowly and surely eroded.

This isn't whinging because I have voted with my feet and not renewed my subscriptions; In have written to my MPs and I have signed online petitions. If BASC, and others, would like to take more of an honest leadership role and prove it by being more forthright about what they actually do stand for, then I may renew my membership. Until then, not a chance.
 
Why oh why don't all of the organisations come together just over this one issue?

Let's get this sorted now.
Surely the Home Office Guidance must be implemented by all forces equitably?
 
Why oh why don't all of the organisations come together just over this one issue?

Let's get this sorted now.
Surely the Home Office Guidance must be implemented by all forces equitably?
mbership
Insider knowledge? Fear of failure and subsequent loss of membership, or lack of will (excluding CA) I cant fins any suitable excuses for them over this. Sad really, but it is also betrayal by those who should be the voice of shooting.
 
I think you will find that all of the shooting organisations actively involved in this important issue are of the same mind, and want the same outcome
 
I think you will find that all of the shooting organisations actively involved in this important issue are of the same mind, and want the same outcome

David, with all respect, we don't think that you are or do and that's the fundamental issue.

If one press release came out with all the names and signatures, then that would do the trick.

Some Joined-Up-Thinking wouldn't go amiss here, so please take that back to the ranch. We don't really care who kicks it all off, but you all need to get around one table and work out what the heck you're going to do, as shooting needs a single voice like air right now!
 
All the shooting organisations that are actively involved in this want a fair and standard approach to licencing as per the HO guidance and want the medical fees issue to be as originally agreed.
I accept that BASC may be seen to be taking one approach and others may be seen to be taking a slightly different approach, never the less the objective is the same.
As and when there are updates on this issue they will be posted on the BASC web site, and I will post the links here
 
David, with all respect, we don't think that you are or do and that's the fundamental issue.

If one press release came out with all the names and signatures, then that would do the trick.

Some Joined-Up-Thinking wouldn't go amiss here, so please take that back to the ranch. We don't really care who kicks it all off, but you all need to get around one table and work out what the heck you're going to do, as shooting needs a single voice like air right now!

Totally and unresevedly agree with this , and have done for years. How many times in the last two or even three decades have you either heard or said that "if only all of the shooting organisations would just act together" ?

At the same time it amazes me that some of our representative organisations are so cavalier in their attitude towards our sport which is also their employment. I am then reminded that the upper echelons of our organisations are populated with "professional" managers who may not necessarily have any personal interest or involvement in our chosen persuits and only retain their position because of their business acumen.
 
BASC CEO - shooter
BASC Director communications - shooter
BASC Director operations - shooter
BASC head of marketing - shooter
BASC head of firearms - shooter
BASC head of game & deer - shooter
BASC head of press - shooter
BASC business development manager - shooter
BASC head of rural development - shooter
BASC regional and Country directors - all shooters...I could go on but perhaps I have made my point - we all have a vested interest in shooting, not just as a business but as shooters and conservationists
 
BASC CEO - shooter
BASC Director communications - shooter
BASC Director operations - shooter
BASC head of marketing - shooter
BASC head of firearms - shooter
BASC head of game & deer - shooter
BASC head of press - shooter
BASC business development manager - shooter
BASC head of rural development - shooter
BASC regional and Country directors - all shooters...I could go on but perhaps I have made my point - we all have a vested interest in shooting, not just as a business but as shooters and conservationists

Then it is to be hoped that all are listening to the NEED, spelled out by IF above to get the right result quickly before, as with the Andy Marsh initiative, the damage is done and again irreversible.
 
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