Yup. Totally agree with this. The more I look at that, the more I see very little evidence of anything really wrong. I will put money it being a barrel that needs a good fouling after a deep clean, plus some shooter frustration. Possibly some issues to do with shifting hold/cheek weld etc.
.308 zero, what on earth is going on????
- Thread starter rogeydodge
- Start date
Yup. Totally agree with this. The more I look at that, the more I see very little evidence of anything really wrong. I will put money it being a barrel that needs a good fouling after a deep clean, plus some shooter frustration. Possibly some issues to do with shifting hold/cheek weld etc.
That is intriguing.
Given the rigidity of the barrel mounting and the free floating design of the bolt head I am surprised that could make any difference, any even less a variable one.
Do you have any personal experience or can you expand on that idea a bit more?
Looking at the OP's target...aparty from the average POI being 3" lower than I have mine, all of the shots are within 3" of one another, remove the lower of the first two shots and the average poi of all the other shots is within an inch or so...not much of a problem with factory even if not ideal. Be interesting to see what happens if the OP tries his accurate home load again.
Given the vagaries of group analysis I always post this link as a good read to give perspective...
http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Fuller_group_diagnosis.htm
I agree a good known scope will remove that possibility from the equation.
Alan
jthyttin
Well-Known Member
Two possibilities, since it's been noted that Blaser QD mount screws tend to get loose.
rogeydodge
Member
Thanks everyone for your sage advice. I have borrowed a Z81 with saddlemount already on it, and will try some groups with that & see where it leads.
Am I right in assuming if it had been a barrel issue it would of been spotted when the bore scope went down?
Am I right in assuming if it had been a barrel issue it would of been spotted when the bore scope went down?
Not necessarily. Depends who did it, with what kit, and what they were looking for.
HowaU
Well-Known Member
Hi Roger, seems like you are having scope dramas,
have you been changing the magnification between shots/groups this can also break the group up.
Do you swap out barrels on your blaser or is it just a single caliber standalone rifle.
the glass in your scope could have moved and everytime you fire a shot it might move again to give you a slight variation of where you are actualy aiming.
borrow a scope try it and see.
your warranty would sort your old scope.
good luck
have you been changing the magnification between shots/groups this can also break the group up.
Do you swap out barrels on your blaser or is it just a single caliber standalone rifle.
the glass in your scope could have moved and everytime you fire a shot it might move again to give you a slight variation of where you are actualy aiming.
borrow a scope try it and see.
your warranty would sort your old scope.
good luck
rogeydodge
Member
Thanks HowaU, I do have other calibers, but use those with a different scope. I will see how I get on with the Z8i. If I don't resole the issue it looks like the barrel. The Zeiss is already packaged to be shipped of tomorrow. They say things come in threes, my new Leica Geovids are not calibrated properly according to Mark Kearn, so they are packaged up to go back also. Mark has been brilliant. Just wondering what could be next! One of those weeks
Uncle f
Well-Known Member
Save your self all the aggro and get Swarovski kit.
Yeah yeah bring on the posts I’m ready for them but law of averages suggests Swarovski kit doesn’t go wrong that often in my experience however I’m sure you chaps will explain to me the error in my way! Just my small humbled experienced opinion having used them all and now have five z6i scopes and el range finding bins no issues whatso ever
did you try the barrel lugs to see if they were wet in any way?
Yeah yeah bring on the posts I’m ready for them but law of averages suggests Swarovski kit doesn’t go wrong that often in my experience however I’m sure you chaps will explain to me the error in my way! Just my small humbled experienced opinion having used them all and now have five z6i scopes and el range finding bins no issues whatso ever
did you try the barrel lugs to see if they were wet in any way?
I have found that the A-TEC Mod is not that great.If it is loose just a little it causes exactly what you have described.I have had the same problem.I have a Blaser R8 pro in 22/250 .308 and 7mm rem mag and the A-Tec on the 7mm is rubbish yet without it it shoots perfectly well ,just not with the .30 cal A-Tec on.Yet on the .308 and 22/250 it is great.Also have you checked the overall length of your cartridge as I find with my Blaser R8 pro that it likes bullets seated further away from the lands.Check and load some more bullets.Also what powder are you using as different batches give differing results.Your powder might be temperature sensitive and if you were shooting in winter this could be a big issue.Try some factory loads and see how you do with them.
ChesterP
Well-Known Member
For "Swarovski" you can substitute "Nightforce", "Schmidt & Bender" and even some budget makes such as Falcon....they don't go wrong very frequently either. Neither do many other makes. Swaro are good but they do not have the claim to be the only company making reliable optics. I have swaro as well as S&B, Nightforce, Steiner and Bushnell. From that lot, the Swaro are the only optics that developed a fault, albeit they were repaired under warranty, no questions asked.
Until the OP re-checks his mounts and tries a different scope etc, we can only speculate as there's no evidence yet as to what the cause is.
The target image itself does not seem to indicate a particularly devastating problem to me, but maybe that is because of my low standards.
Apart from the bottom shot, all the rest form a 2" group, I have had much worse from PPU.
All the other shots are within an inch of a point somewhere between the "e" of Caldwell and the bottom point of the black square. The fact that the tight third group's POI is 3/4" up and 1/2" left of the other shots' average POI may indicate something mechanical shifting between groups, but could also be just explained by change of hold and cheek weld or the random nature of group formation I would have thought...The fact that this target was produced when shooting the rifle in an unfamiliar configuration...without a moderator...could also explain some waywardness.
Even including the bottom shot, it is still only a 3 1/4" group and all mean a dead deer...though with that ammunition I would obviously raise the zero by 3".
The OP's initial problem of his accurate home load groups opening up is may be more indicative of a mechanical shift problem though.
Talking of mechanical shifting, I was lucky that the sound level at the range dropped enough for me to hear a rattle from my moderator when unscrewing it after a POI shift of 4" to the right. The baffle clamping ring had come loose. I had presumed it was my scope to start with.
Alan
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ChesterP
Well-Known Member
It's because the OP is convinced there's a problem as his rifle's shooting erratically compared with how (as he describes it) it used to shoot, which may indicate that there is something amiss. It's the alleged mechanical shift issue in particular which seems to be the issue. 3 1/4 inch group isn't typical of most modern rifles that are shooting well, even off sticks, and that would suggest to me there is an issue. I wouldn't be happy with anything more than inch grouping with home loads or decent factory, and perhaps up to 2 inches off sticks. If shooting PPU factory, 2 inches at 100 yards as you say, wouldn't be untypical...in fact from the factory PPU I've tried, that'd have been a bit tasty!
rogeydodge
Member
Just a quick update. Yesterday I shot the attached groups (or not). Firstly I used a Swaro Z8i in place of the Zeiss. Center diamond first shot at eight o'clock, then the other three string out below that. Took the barrel off and put it on another R8 stock, next group(or not) top diamond!! Called Robert at Blaser this morning, and without hesitation said they would arrange collection of the complete rifle on Monday & do a full examination.
A very strange affair indeed. This was a rifle that shot sub moa groups all day long, with almost any ammunition although I favored my home loads. It's certainly had well short of a 1000 rds through it, and then one day gives up the ghost!
Can't fault Blaser customer service, and I look forward to hearing their findings, which I will update you on in due course.
Thanks a lot for all of your very valid input.
Roger
Can't rotate image here for some reason, should be vertical with shot below diamonds
A very strange affair indeed. This was a rifle that shot sub moa groups all day long, with almost any ammunition although I favored my home loads. It's certainly had well short of a 1000 rds through it, and then one day gives up the ghost!
Can't fault Blaser customer service, and I look forward to hearing their findings, which I will update you on in due course.
Thanks a lot for all of your very valid input.
Roger
Can't rotate image here for some reason, should be vertical with shot below diamonds
Were those shots also with the moderator off as were those to the first target you showed in the OP?
And were both targets shot from a bench?
Which ammunition was this, still the Sako 150 grain Super Hammerhead?
Alan
And were both targets shot from a bench?
Which ammunition was this, still the Sako 150 grain Super Hammerhead?
Alan
rogeydodge
Member
Yes it was a different mount used with the Swaro.
Alan, yes mod was off. No not from a bench, but when it was grouping well, that wasn't from a bench either. Still the Sako 150gr super hammerhead used.
Alan, yes mod was off. No not from a bench, but when it was grouping well, that wasn't from a bench either. Still the Sako 150gr super hammerhead used.
The reason I asked about the support system you used was that the second target looks for all the world like it was shot off quad sticks with your feet not wide spaced front to back enough so the vertical spread was less controlled...overall horizontal spread on both targets is much better than vertical despite the two tighter groups in the first target.
So if not from a bench what did you use?
Did you try it with the moderator on again before sending it off?
It will be interesting to see what Blaser have to say...my R8 .308 is coming up to 900 round count so I hope that doesn't suddenly develop a fault.
While you are waiting for Blaser it might be worth doing a google on vertical stringing...in order to discount some possibilities if nothing else. One of the intriguing causes mentioned by Speedy Gonzalez on 6mmbr.com site was firing pin sticking!
Alan
Markfox
Well-Known Member
At least another scope and mount has ruled out that variable
I’d have liked to have seen a pic of the crown area
I’d have tried some other ammo, I’ve always found RWS DK ammo shoots well in Mauser / blaser rifles just to see what that does
also you said you cleaned the barrel but what what is your cleaning regime ? What do you actually do and what do you use product wise ?
I’d have liked to have seen a pic of the crown area
I’d have tried some other ammo, I’ve always found RWS DK ammo shoots well in Mauser / blaser rifles just to see what that does
also you said you cleaned the barrel but what what is your cleaning regime ? What do you actually do and what do you use product wise ?
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