enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
That'll be the loading we Brits copied then following our debacle in the Boer War to create the .303" Mk VII cartridge. 174 grains at 2,450fps. It'll be a good sure killer rest confident in that.
1st Deer Calibre Rifle - Advice
- Thread starter blaserf3
- Start date
That'll be the loading we Brits copied then following our debacle in the Boer War to create the .303" Mk VII cartridge. 174 grains at 2,450fps. It'll be a good sure killer rest confident in that.
Yes PKL, that’s where I’m coming from, I think its fair to say that in the context of the ‘first rifle which calibre’ question, that the small but dedicated following of the 7x57 might sometimes overstate its relevance to an inexperienced non-hand loader. I have no quibble with its capabilities, history at all, but to my way of thinking it wouldn’t feature on a shortlist of options for the OP today. Even the 6.5x55 Swedeis a bit of a stretch.
(One of my occasional hunting partners uses an ancient Mauser 7x57 and RN bullets, not sure which, and the combination of him and his rifle is extremely effective. He does have the benefit though of about 60years of experience.)
(One of my occasional hunting partners uses an ancient Mauser 7x57 and RN bullets, not sure which, and the combination of him and his rifle is extremely effective. He does have the benefit though of about 60years of experience.)
Tom D
Well-Known Member
My local gun shop!
To be fair I haven’t bought factory 7-08 ammo since 2012, it is becoming more popular so maybe it’s not as bad as that. There have been some horror stories on here of ammo around the £60 mark... the problem is often the importers. I was talking to an RFD recently about why his prices for Sierra bullets was comparable with US prices yet his hornaday stuff was more than double US prices. It’s down to the importers who just love to fleece us brits...
I started reloading not long after I got the 7-08 and I started with a lee hand press and a lee neck die set, I made some seriously accurate ammo with it and my entire reloading kit would fit in a shoe box. So my advice to the OP would be keep it simple, get a hand press and don’t even bother with the scales just the lee dippers and load up some basic ammo himself, then he can choose which ever caliber he fancies.
Dauntsey Guns, Wiltshire, Wiltshire's Friendly Gun Shop: Centrefire, 7mm-08 Rem
available locally at £45 but I can well believe £60 for some loadings, some 6.5x55 factory is approaching that.
available locally at £45 but I can well believe £60 for some loadings, some 6.5x55 factory is approaching that.
I hate to post again, but I feel like I may have diverted this thread into the IDEAL deer rifle instead a SENSIBLE first deer rifle for the OP.
Here in the USA, the 7x57, 8x57, and 6.5x55 come in two levels of loadings: fairly mild, for the older surplus rifles, and about 10,000 PSI stronger and 200 FPS faster for modern rifles. To me, this offers an advantage, because you can buy inexpensive, mild loadings for practice while becoming a better marksman and hunter. These loads kill deer today, as they have for 120 years. When you have the need to smack Big Red or Big Boar, the modern ammo is there. It is important to not jump into something which punishes a new shooter and causes him to develop a flinch or jerky trigger.
If he is going to start loading his own ammunition right off the bat, 7x57 or 7mm-08 are great, but he can just as well buy a .308 or .270, find lots of ammo in the shops, and load those a notch, which will still tumble deer over in their tracks.
Don't over-analyze it.
Buy an inexpensive rifle known to shoot well, used or new, that you can resell for little or no loss.
Choose a medium power DEER cartridge between 6.5x55 and .270 Winchester which has a variety of affordable ammunition in a variety of loads.
Take advantage of the loss of favor for fine 6x42, 7x50 and older scopes like the 3-9x36mm Zeiss and Swaro - all keepers forever.
Spend the money saved on ammunition, a .22 rifle, and some hunting with a skilled guide.
Start with low power PPU or whatever, shoot at targets with pleasure, kill deer easily out to 200 meters without having to dope wind or elevation.
Learn from that what you like, don't like, want to hunt, and MAYBE, buy another rifle later for that.
Here in the USA, the 7x57, 8x57, and 6.5x55 come in two levels of loadings: fairly mild, for the older surplus rifles, and about 10,000 PSI stronger and 200 FPS faster for modern rifles. To me, this offers an advantage, because you can buy inexpensive, mild loadings for practice while becoming a better marksman and hunter. These loads kill deer today, as they have for 120 years. When you have the need to smack Big Red or Big Boar, the modern ammo is there. It is important to not jump into something which punishes a new shooter and causes him to develop a flinch or jerky trigger.
If he is going to start loading his own ammunition right off the bat, 7x57 or 7mm-08 are great, but he can just as well buy a .308 or .270, find lots of ammo in the shops, and load those a notch, which will still tumble deer over in their tracks.
Don't over-analyze it.
Buy an inexpensive rifle known to shoot well, used or new, that you can resell for little or no loss.
Choose a medium power DEER cartridge between 6.5x55 and .270 Winchester which has a variety of affordable ammunition in a variety of loads.
Take advantage of the loss of favor for fine 6x42, 7x50 and older scopes like the 3-9x36mm Zeiss and Swaro - all keepers forever.
Spend the money saved on ammunition, a .22 rifle, and some hunting with a skilled guide.
Start with low power PPU or whatever, shoot at targets with pleasure, kill deer easily out to 200 meters without having to dope wind or elevation.
Learn from that what you like, don't like, want to hunt, and MAYBE, buy another rifle later for that.
Could be wrong, but think may be 140g...as with all Norma, I’m guessing £45-55/20
Why not just get a nice .30-06 and you have a rifle for all uk species and almost anything you might try abroad in the future and no reasons you won’t have a rifle for life.
I’ve a .270 Blaser R93 with a mod on it and have shot other .270 and never had recoil issues but that’s just me.
I’ve a .270 Blaser R93 with a mod on it and have shot other .270 and never had recoil issues but that’s just me.
kenbro
Well-Known Member
depends on your POA, I like the high shoulder shot personally, so inch high with my 7x57 and 30-06 is point and shoot to 300 on red deer at least, as the drop at 300 takes it to a perfect heart placement, being quite low on reds of course. On Roe, I would not feel the same way, maybe point and shoot to 225
Sinistral
Well-Known Member
We’re now at 90-plus posts. The initial question has long been forgotten so it’s worth resurrectlng it.
This is from a novice looking for an entry calibre who’s only ever fired a few CF rounds. No DSC1 or any idea how to go about things. I’m going to generalise because it’s a low level query & point out that he’s in England not the US or NZ.
Licensing will edge him towards a .243 because it’s his first rifle & their default calibre. IMO it’s the worst possible choice for a beginner and inexperienced stalker as it’s marginal for Red & Sika.
6.5 x 55 is a better idea than .243, but ammunition isn’t available from every gunshop.
6.5 Creedmoor is really for reloaders & gun nuts who think they’re missing out on something new.
.270 is barky, and in decline.
7 x 57 is an antique & niche calibre found only in vintage rifles wielded by mature stalkers.
7mm-08 is still uncommon after 40 years. It hasn’t caught on so ammunition is scarce & overpriced.
.308 will cover everything & ammo is everywhere in all permutations, but his FLD may think it’s OTT.
That’s about it for me. I’ve assumed the worry about the ammunition only relates to the 6.5 Creedmoor.
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enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
+1. It's also bloomin nasty on close range deer at twenty yards or so. So I'd not recommend it for woodland stalking either. Shoot a deer at twenty yards with one, walked straight into it almost, standing shot, as I have with Federal 100 grain "Light Magnum" factory ammunition...supposedly 3,100fps at the muzzle, and you'll decide that it's just too high velocity. But what can you do? You can't ask the deer to take sixty paces backwards.
whilst a compliment, 7x57 is available, for good reasons, in many newer rifles as well tbh. Take for example the new Mauser 98’s, westley, rigby, etc etc, and of course, it’s the best selling all time chambering of all non-synthetic custom built rifles...and there’s a reason for that beyond the ‘class’ factor.
i absolutely love the 7x57, but for someone new who might not reload yet, and also may not want to buy either top end custom or a classic rifle, I’d recommend something else...with luck of course, they will mature into a 7x57 Hunter.
Imho, the 7x57 is what the 6.5x55 wishes it was, and never became. I do believe most 6.5x55 shooters are very similar to 7x57 shooters, they’ve just never tried one, or they are so afraid to admit defeat they don’t dare try
I think the initial question is still in play. Some deviation, but mostly relevant.
So what? Same principles apply no matter where you are. Same animals last time I checked. Are you telling me that Southern’s advice is wrong? Sounds pretty spot on to me and somewhat more reasoned that 90% of the one-liner “get what I’ve got” responses forums tend to throw up. What has been good to understand for an ex-pom me is the ammo availability restriction. I wouldn’t know that if I hadn’t participated and potentially neither would the OP.
Bollox. Any rifle is marginal in hands of an inexperienced shooter if they catch a bad dose of buck fever. The best you can hope for is that the new shooter will do the right thing and take the time to learn, the right way. Many thousands of highly competent shooters the world over learned centrefire with a .243 Win. I’ve avoided harping on about .243 again so I’ll leave it there.
Cobblers. Two historical attributes both cartridges share is the successful killing of millions of medium game animals. Use the right type of bullet loaded to the right level, put the bullet in the right place, same outcome.
More cobblers. I reload, I am a hunter and not a gun nut, and the last statement is just so tired. The Creedmoor has very capably filled a gap in my requirements for precisely the reasons it was created. I don't use it as a stalking rifle but as a medium range (250-700m) rifle. No one is promoting the Creedmoor in this thread anyway.
It is an outstanding cartridge with a rich history that is very common the world over and not what the OP wants as he said at the outset.
I will agree with you there. Though I will repeat what I said before – in my experience the mature stalkers that still use it in their antiques are very competent and rarely come home empty handed.
I am amazed to hear this. The 7mm-08 is in the top 3 sellers here, I believe in 2016 it was the highest seller out of the country’s largest chain of gunshops. I had assumed that it would be everywhere else in the world, it seems ubiquitous these days. But the little bit of UK ammo research I did to kill some time yesterday seems to back up the statement. Maybe it hasn’t caught on because a lot of the traditionalist thinking in the UK blocks uptake of new developments, anything that isn’t 50 years old is a fad. Like the thinking about Creedmoor.
The OP has said he doesn’t like the recoil of a .270 Win, so a .308 Win is a risk. To me, having both in the safe, I can tell the difference, but also I can create quite different outcomes depending what I shoot through them. Definitely a “try before you buy” option, and also very important to make sure you try in the same kind of stock configuration and weight range as the kind of rifle you might buy. But generally speaking I still wouldn’t recommend a .270, .308 or a .30-06 to a newbie.
Nope. I think we’ve learnt that the 7mm08 potentially has problems too.
Sorry Sinistral nothing personal, its Monday and the week has started very badly and I’m feeling like calling a spade a spade. Are we allowed to say that anymore?
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Before we descend into the predictable rancour about .243Win, I will accede to the opinion that was a very short range shooting choice, its not ideal with factory loaded ammo pushing 3000fps+. None of the fast cartridges are. If possible, we should help the OP understand the velocity range and terminal ballistics that he should be focussing on, which was raised earlier very well, and further detailed by the Gunblue video on 7mm-08. That said, if the ground the OP will be shooting is lightly wooded to open, with most game in the 80-150m range, then .243Win is as relevant as any other, especially for the recoil sensitive.
Reason I say this is that the first rifle recommendation we made to a young bloke recently, for close, heavily wooded shooting, was a .30-30 lever gun with slowish soft points, and that recommendation delivered perfect outcomes on big fat red hinds and spikers at typically 30-40m or thereabouts. At first this young fella thought we were daft but with a bit of help from an old timer, he’s worked out why this delivers so well in those conditions.
Reason I say this is that the first rifle recommendation we made to a young bloke recently, for close, heavily wooded shooting, was a .30-30 lever gun with slowish soft points, and that recommendation delivered perfect outcomes on big fat red hinds and spikers at typically 30-40m or thereabouts. At first this young fella thought we were daft but with a bit of help from an old timer, he’s worked out why this delivers so well in those conditions.
Dodgy, we are on fire today.
You must have had a very bad day!
Reading back through all the posts the common thread for shooting Reds seems to be that most agree that a 140 grain bullet is about right. Whether that comes out of a 6.5 or a 7mm seems to be what's being debated, everyone having their own favourite.
7mm08 ammunition is not difficult to get hold of and neither is 6.5 Swede. Don't be put off by that.
One side note following the comments on the 6.5 Creedmoor, I was fortunate enough to spend a day shooting one a couple of weeks ago at a range in the US. Factory Hornaday ammunition, their Precision 143 ELDX. I was plinking targets all the way out to 900 yds with ease. I have never found factory ammo that has been that accurate before. I will not be getting one as it replicates my 6.5 Lapua and home loads but if I didn't have the Lapua I would buy one tomorrow. A great chambering with fantastic quality off the shelf ammunition available for it.
You must have had a very bad day!
Reading back through all the posts the common thread for shooting Reds seems to be that most agree that a 140 grain bullet is about right. Whether that comes out of a 6.5 or a 7mm seems to be what's being debated, everyone having their own favourite.
7mm08 ammunition is not difficult to get hold of and neither is 6.5 Swede. Don't be put off by that.
One side note following the comments on the 6.5 Creedmoor, I was fortunate enough to spend a day shooting one a couple of weeks ago at a range in the US. Factory Hornaday ammunition, their Precision 143 ELDX. I was plinking targets all the way out to 900 yds with ease. I have never found factory ammo that has been that accurate before. I will not be getting one as it replicates my 6.5 Lapua and home loads but if I didn't have the Lapua I would buy one tomorrow. A great chambering with fantastic quality off the shelf ammunition available for it.
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