The current issue is that we feel subservience to the EU.
So . . . .
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The current issue is that we feel subservience to the EU.
AN DU RU FOX
Well-Known Member
I,m not arguing the case that if we leave or when, we will become subservient to these larger nations there isnt much we could do in any case ,but being part of the eu wont alter that fact as those larger states/countries dont give a monkeys chuff about the eu anyway or us for that matter.
Chasey
Well-Known Member
I have said it many times. Lets let the "ordinary people" vote on whether ALL hunting should be banned in the UK?
would we be happy to abide by the democratic result of THAT referendum?
And why would the result of the referendum be wrong?
Could it possibly be the ignorance of the people who were allowed to vote. Their emotive and ill considered conclusions and not understanding the real issues or the impact of a ban on hunting?
You cant have it all ways,
In the end you have to accept the "people" should not be allowed to make such critical decisions. It should be left to debate between professionals who understand the issues.
Shouting from the roof tops with pride about the "will of the people must be followed" wouldn't be happening on THIS forum after a referendum on hunting with guns I can tell you that with 100% confidence.
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Chasey
Well-Known Member
OK, so when we leave a situation where we were one of the big four with EQUAL power of vote to control the destiny of the ship,
Where do you see our power in the USA? China & Russia?
Tell me how do we influence the path of those countries which are equal to, or bigger than the EU we just left?
Where's our 29 votes ?
Yes, let's!
Chasey
Well-Known Member
I,m not arguing the case that if we leave or when, we will become subservient to these larger nations there isnt much we could do in any case ,but being part of the eu wont alter that fact as those larger states/countries dont give a monkeys chuff about the eu anyway or us for that matter.
So why are they all clamouring for a special deal with the EU?
Why are they all complaining about the power and influence of the EU?
Why did Obama say the EU will be the next big super power?
Recent history does not appear to support your view.
AN DU RU FOX
Well-Known Member
We will see when it all comes tumbling down,
african jack
Well-Known Member
geopolitics in Europe failed for Germany in the late thirties then we had a common market good then the EU started the geopolitics experiment all over again and again as before it must be defeated
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mchughcb
Well-Known Member
Can't have a referendum on everything. Current technology makes it too expensive. But following the legal process, some forms of hunting banned by politicians elected by the people. And that is right in the eyes of the law.
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't have a clue but surprisingly Japan took over from the UK as a bigger trading partner and now its China. Forcing other countries to go through the EU is one mechanism. Trading directly is another. Civilizations have been trading successfully for a millenia before the EU was created. Smart businesses will always work it out.
mapHaving a EU badge should not be a guarantee of an atteactive business friendly nation.
Badges? Badges? We don't need no stinkin EU Badge.
This is exactly what entered my head when the guy quotes M Paris in the video as per post 473.
But to offset the depressing elements of this thread I’m committed to becoming more and more excited about this wondrous new-found "freedom" we keep hearing about, albeit I do wish someone would issue a steer in what it looks like so it doesn’t pass me by.
K
I think that it’s especially important for
I,m not arguing the case that if we leave or when, we will become subservient to these larger nations there isnt much we could do in any case ,but being part of the eu wont alter that fact as those larger states/countries dont give a monkeys chuff about the eu anyway or us for that matter.
I completely understand that, the problem is that under our current arrangements with the EU we are about as free as any country on the planet can be in 2018. we are in a very strong position.
And, i completely appreciate that things can always be better, but what the leave campaign promised people was beyond reality, and has unfortunately been proven through world events to be at best a failed concept now.
I very much support „ ordinary „ people ( whoever ordinarily people are, nearly all people I’ve met are amazing in one way or another) .
The Problem with letting an entire country vote on something that is of international importance and probably only 10% of the population have a very well informed understanding of , is that it can go extremely badly wrong, especially if you have world leaders and very well financed campaign groups and tabloid owners openly misleading that country , to line their own pockets or forward their political jobs .
The Problem that the UK has now is that it’s in a very bad state. It’s not the leave voters fault and it’s not the remain voters fault. It should never have been allowed to happen in the first place, its Parliament, our parliament that is at fault. I just hope they fix it!
Kindest regards, Olaf
Chasey
Well-Known Member
Spot on
The leave voters had some very relevant issues to complain about. Like why the UK government actively encourages immigration against the will of the people, why they totally failed to implement the EU safeguards against migrant workers claiming benefits and why the UK government totally failed to observe the posted workers directive from the EU which sought to prevent companies using cheaper labour on reduced benefits to take the place of native workers.
Why has the UK government totally failed to provide a reasonable training structure to fill key jobs like the 350,000 positions in the NHS now filled by migrant workers?
Why has the British government decided on a economy based around importing skilled workers rather than providing support at home to get the skills we need on home soil
Most importantly for me, why did the British government allow the Brexit campaign to be based on lies and make little or no effort to properly inform the people about the massive problems we would face in the event of leaving the EU
Why did the British government actively support blame the EU for the problems it created its self
Why didn't the British government properly publicise our agreement with the EU that the UK would be exempt from further integration in an EU super state. In doing so leaving many with the view we would be sucked into this against our will which was totally untrue
Why did the British government allow it to be suggested we had to submit to the will of the EU when our government supported and voted in favour of 98.3 percent of ALL past and present EU directives and Regulations?
Why wasnt the operation and function of the EU and our power as citizens taught at schools as part of Citizenship which has left wide spread ignorance about the democratic nature of the EU Parliament and Commission
Why was a referendum allowed that would split the country causing massive permanent damage in our society?
The above is fact, below is speculation of my own
I have spent many hours contemplating the answers to these questions and my conclusion is, it was done as a distraction.
The chaos that is to follow shortly, will be used as a coverup for wide spread reforms that otherwise would have brought down governments
Along the lines of Thathcher and the Falklands (now recognised by historians as a smoke screen event and even taught that way in schools) but on a MUCH larger scale of reform.
Perhaps it would only be possable outside of the UK human / civil rights protection and the European Courts?
It will be an interesting decade if the constraints of workers rights, human rights and civil liberties granted us by the EU, are removed.
Or maybe thats too sinister? Perhaps is as simple as a push to privatise the NHS, scrap public pensions and bring in a raft of tax reforms so punitive, they would have never succeeded without the govt's ability to say, not our fault, its Brexit
Coybyn JRM and BO JO know damed well tha cant do a better deel than may has so why else are they stoking the fires and pushing for a hard Brexit? We know Corbyn what to use it to renationalise, but I think the son of a famous disaster capitalist, has other ideas.
On the other hand, it could all be my twisted imagination, there will be a third EU referendum, and we will vote to stay in the EU and it will all be over?
Anything's possable
I have accepted that ever since Trump got elected
The leave voters had some very relevant issues to complain about. Like why the UK government actively encourages immigration against the will of the people, why they totally failed to implement the EU safeguards against migrant workers claiming benefits and why the UK government totally failed to observe the posted workers directive from the EU which sought to prevent companies using cheaper labour on reduced benefits to take the place of native workers.
Why has the UK government totally failed to provide a reasonable training structure to fill key jobs like the 350,000 positions in the NHS now filled by migrant workers?
Why has the British government decided on a economy based around importing skilled workers rather than providing support at home to get the skills we need on home soil
Most importantly for me, why did the British government allow the Brexit campaign to be based on lies and make little or no effort to properly inform the people about the massive problems we would face in the event of leaving the EU
Why did the British government actively support blame the EU for the problems it created its self
Why didn't the British government properly publicise our agreement with the EU that the UK would be exempt from further integration in an EU super state. In doing so leaving many with the view we would be sucked into this against our will which was totally untrue
Why did the British government allow it to be suggested we had to submit to the will of the EU when our government supported and voted in favour of 98.3 percent of ALL past and present EU directives and Regulations?
Why wasnt the operation and function of the EU and our power as citizens taught at schools as part of Citizenship which has left wide spread ignorance about the democratic nature of the EU Parliament and Commission
Why was a referendum allowed that would split the country causing massive permanent damage in our society?
The above is fact, below is speculation of my own
I have spent many hours contemplating the answers to these questions and my conclusion is, it was done as a distraction.
The chaos that is to follow shortly, will be used as a coverup for wide spread reforms that otherwise would have brought down governments
Along the lines of Thathcher and the Falklands (now recognised by historians as a smoke screen event and even taught that way in schools) but on a MUCH larger scale of reform.
Perhaps it would only be possable outside of the UK human / civil rights protection and the European Courts?
It will be an interesting decade if the constraints of workers rights, human rights and civil liberties granted us by the EU, are removed.
Or maybe thats too sinister? Perhaps is as simple as a push to privatise the NHS, scrap public pensions and bring in a raft of tax reforms so punitive, they would have never succeeded without the govt's ability to say, not our fault, its Brexit
Coybyn JRM and BO JO know damed well tha cant do a better deel than may has so why else are they stoking the fires and pushing for a hard Brexit? We know Corbyn what to use it to renationalise, but I think the son of a famous disaster capitalist, has other ideas.
On the other hand, it could all be my twisted imagination, there will be a third EU referendum, and we will vote to stay in the EU and it will all be over?
Anything's possable
I have accepted that ever since Trump got elected
Sounds very similar to a voice I heard on the radio once. "Germany calling, Germany calling" and look what happened to him. Haw, Haw.
Chasey
Well-Known Member
The problem here is two fold
1: We are in a vastly weekened position to negotiate a deel because the whole planet knows we desperately need quick deals. The usual 6-10 years it takes to get a deel going will not be in our best interests.
2: The current WTO deal we are working under is an EU deel?? SO it wont continue past our EU departure and the other WTO only countries will not allow favourable treatment of the UK
AN DU RU FOX
Well-Known Member
we just wasted 2 1/2 yrs because no one would step up to the plate ,and kept muttering in the wings now the ***** hitting the fan the usual backstabbers are appearing out of the shadows and mixing it instead of letting her or anyone sort it out asap. get this in your heads europhiles the majority want out even if it hurts.
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
Relax, enjoy, all will be well.
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
Nope. Do you feel that either one of them is about to invade England?
Japan?
China?
USA?
And
Russia? For godsakes the Soviet union collapsed already. Just like the other union is going to.
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
European-style 'democracy' - just like the politbEuro, Lol! Selmayr must be counting the days to JCJ's 'golden goodbye'
(I wouldn't, even though he was being consumed by the flames of Armagnac!);
(I wouldn't, even though he was being consumed by the flames of Armagnac!);
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