Do I have to pay my GP re FAC renewal in Thames Valley?

[gonzo]

I think it's wrong to read the HOG as a shooter. It is addresses to the police.
The HOG says that they do not expect a fee to be charged for the initial response. So this an expectation that the doctors will not charge the police a fee. It says nothing about what to do if a fee were to be charged, if it could be passed on.
And the cock up that the HO introduced this without it being part of teh doctors NHS contract.

Though it looks like the policy wes changed around the same time as the last revision of the HOG.

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2016/03/Firearms-licensing-medical-process-fact-sheet.pdf

What is not up for question is, should you declare a condition, and a further specialist report is required, this must be paid for by the police. And they are certainly trying to weassle their way around this. Which is more concerning.

 

[pazmino]

Well, there's an update, and it's not good. I emailed TVP as follows:

I've had a letter from my GP saying they'll charge £36 to provide a letter to the police re my health and medical history in connection with my FAC renewal.

Naturally I don't wish to pay this if I don't have to, and as I don't have any medical conditions which could affect my suitability to hold an FAC, I believe my GP does not actually have to write anything.

I'm told that Home Office guidance says if the police don't receive a response from the GP within 21 days they should assume there are no issues.

Please can you tell me if the above information is correct, and whether I do in fact need to do anything re the payment?

and have just had the following response:

Thank you for your email.

As soon an application is processed, the generic GP letter is generated and send out to the surgery listed on an application form. The GP surgeries have 5 ways to respond to our generic letter. If there is no concerns, they can ignore it. Also, they can refuse to engage. Your surgery chose another way: they said that they won’t look at your record without you paying the fee. In this situation we cannot process your application as we don’t know if there is anything that we should be aware. I afraid you will need to pay the fee if you want us to renew your license.

- so that's pretty unequivocal. It just epitomises what a mess the current situation is, with different police forces and GPs basically making their own rules up as they go along.

 

[Miki]

I have to ask - why did you stir the hornets nest ... by thier response "If there is no concerns, they can ignore it." What you have done is indicated that your doctors think there may be a concern and need to look at your records and that you are refusing to pay them to do so...

Just leave it alone, do not respond, do not say anything and rule 1 applies - by not responding it is assumed that there are no concerns and the license will be issued.... you may have just cost yourself money for absolutely no reason - the more that respond, the more this 'condition' gains traction and the more it will become de-facto

 

[CarlW]

Reading this catalogue of infinitely varied application of the rules, one could easily imagine one were hearing of citizens' experiences under some capricious African dictatorship. But, no! It is the UK, one of the world's oldest parliamentary, liberal democracies, which situates the rule of law and the predictibility and universality of its application at the very centre of its legal system.

What an unholy and embarrassing mess. I blame Kes!

Best,

Carl

 

[pazmino]

I have to ask - why did you stir the hornets nest ... by thier response "If there is no concerns, they can ignore it." What you have done is indicated that your doctors think there may be a concern and need to look at your records and that you are refusing to pay them to do so...

Just leave it alone, do not respond, do not say anything and rule 1 applies - by not responding it is assumed that there are no concerns and the license will be issued.... you may have just cost yourself money for absolutely no reason - the more that respond, the more this 'condition' gains traction and the more it will become de-facto

That's not what the police said – because my GP said they won't even look at my record without payment, TVP won't grant my renewal unless I pay the fee.

 

[Benelli m2]

So I'm asking if no reply within 21 days your license will go ahead

 

[Cris]

I have to ask - why did you stir the hornets nest ... by thier response "If there is no concerns, they can ignore it." What you have done is indicated that your doctors think there may be a concern and need to look at your records and that you are refusing to pay them to do so...

Just leave it alone, do not respond, do not say anything and rule 1 applies - by not responding it is assumed that there are no concerns and the license will be issued.... you may have just cost yourself money for absolutely no reason - the more that respond, the more this 'condition' gains traction and the more it will become de-facto

I don’t agree as I have been through this with TVP and I indeed started out by ignoring the GP letter asked by for £50 to respond back to the Police. I then got a letter from the Police telling me that I needed to pay the GP or my application would not go ahead. So I paid but the police fee was reduced to £25 for early renewal so I figured it was not actually costing me any more overall.

 

[pazmino]

So I'm asking if no reply within 21 days your license will go ahead

No it won't

 

[nun_hunter]

So the GP writes two letters, one to the police saying they are asking you for money and one to you asking for money rather than just look at the record and say all is ok or ignore it. So they are actively creating work for themselves in order to get paid.

I know I am not you but there is no way I'd pay but take it as far as I could.

 

[Miki]

So I'm asking if no reply within 21 days your license will go ahead

Yes. That is the law and current Home Office Guidelines. If the Police have any doubt (ie you write to them and say that your Doctor is asking for a payment) then they will insist (as there is a doubt) that the Doctor sends back the 'tick form'.
If you say and do nothing, and the Doctor says and does nothing, then after 21 days they will send your FAC as the Police state "As soon an application is processed, the generic GP letter is generated and send out to the surgery listed on an application form. The GP surgeries have 5 ways to respond to our generic letter. If there is no concerns, they can ignore it ...... "

If you tell the Police that the Doctor has asked for a payment then that. by itself, indicates (to the Police) that there is a concern (otherwise why would the Doctor ask for payment, ie he/she hasn't ignored the letter). The Doctor will not write to the Police unless he has concerns about your suitability to hold a Firearm (which he is duty bound to do irrespective of the Police letter). The Doctor will (also) not write to the Police stating that he has asked you for money and you have refused to pay. Any payment is strictly a civil matter between you and your Doctor/Surgery and is covered by your right of privacy.

 

[Whitebeard]

Well, there's an update, and it's not good. I emailed TVP as follows:

I've had a letter from my GP saying they'll charge £36 to provide a letter to the police re my health and medical history in connection with my FAC renewal.

Naturally I don't wish to pay this if I don't have to, and as I don't have any medical conditions which could affect my suitability to hold an FAC, I believe my GP does not actually have to write anything.

I'm told that Home Office guidance says if the police don't receive a response from the GP within 21 days they should assume there are no issues.

Please can you tell me if the above information is correct, and whether I do in fact need to do anything re the payment?

and have just had the following response:

Thank you for your email.

As soon an application is processed, the generic GP letter is generated and send out to the surgery listed on an application form. The GP surgeries have 5 ways to respond to our generic letter. If there is no concerns, they can ignore it. Also, they can refuse to engage. Your surgery chose another way: they said that they won’t look at your record without you paying the fee. In this situation we cannot process your application as we don’t know if there is anything that we should be aware. I afraid you will need to pay the fee if you want us to renew your license.

- so that's pretty unequivocal. It just epitomises what a mess the current situation is, with different police forces and GPs basically making their own rules up as they go along.

You need to remind your licensing department that it was agreed between the police the GPs and the home office that no fee for the initial "GP Generic Letter" will be applied and that you are only required to pay for a further medical report if you have declared a relevant medical condition and it has been requested by your licensing office that "YOU" obtain the medical report, the police should not ask for a further medical report on your behalf then expect you to pay for it.

Ian.

 

[gonzo]

I believe that the HO guidence is, that in the event of their being a declared medical condition, that the applicant could be charged for the initial letter.
But subsequent reports would be paid for by the police.
This is unchanged by the pilicy change (to always request an initial letter), in 2016.

10.28: " If the GP indicates that they have concerns or there are relevant issues but does not provide further details, then the police may request and pay for a medical report."

What seems to be happening in some areas, the police are asking the applicant to obtain the reports, and therefore pay for them.

 

[Orion]

I believe that the HO guidence is, that in the event of their being a declared medical condition, that the applicant could be charged for the initial letter.
But subsequent reports would be paid for by the police.

Are you confusing the initial letter aka the ‘tick box form’ with a medical report? Because that is what may follow on from a declared medical condition.
HOG Appendix A. 8.

 

[gonzo]

Are you confusing the initial letter aka the ‘tick box form’ with a medical report? Because that is what may follow on from a declared medical condition.
HOG Appendix A. 8.

That is possible.
Information I had was that the initial letter was a form letter from the BMA, used by doctors in response to the initial enquiry. And it is this that I have seen used on the initial enquiry.

I was not aware of a tick box form. Is that issued by the police to the doctors?

 

[Orion]

Sounds like the same thing but maybe an earlier version of it - goes out to the GP from police and they tick the relative response before sending it back to the FLD (or not! ).

 

[gonzo]

Expect it's more of the 'make it up as you go along' mess?

 

[Benelli m2]

Jesus Christ would they put up with crap in France or America I think not

 

[Miki]

<snip>
I was not aware of a tick box form. Is that issued by the police to the doctors?

Yes, this form is the heart of the matter. It asks the Doctor to mark your medical records (so that any medical person who looks at your records knows you have an FAC/SGC) and then asks 6 or 7 (?) more Yes/No questions. There is a copy of this on SD in a previous thread. The questions ask if you are subject to fits or depression, they don't specifically ask if the Doctor thinks you are fit to possess firearms but it gets close.

That's it, that's what the Doctors want you to pay for, to mark your records and tick 6 (or so) yes/no boxes ...... no sharing of medical records, no dissemination of your details or history, no real decision about anything to be honest. The main thing is that your records are marked and the Doctors indicate that they are not concerned that you have suicidal tendencies or exhibit a raging desire to kill anyone that disagrees with you.

You are asked to declare any relevant medical conditions on your application/renewal. The Doctors 'tick form' reinforces your declaration and has (in Scotland) uncovered some liars which pretty much sealed our fate up here as the Police refused to issue certs without the completed form. As soon as the Doctors realised this was the case, charges went from £0/£25 to £50/£60 and in many cases over £100. The highest I heard of was £220. There is nothing we can do here, the shooting organisations agree with the principle and are about as usefull as a chocolate teapot (actually that's a wee bit unfair as some Doctors refused to take part in the scheme and SACS (and to a lesser extent BASC) helped to sort these types of issues), in England and Wales it is a different story.

Don't pay the Doctor.
Don't ask your FEO.
Don't lie on your application.
Just sit tight and you will get your certs issued

 

[steve w]

i had a letter 3 weeks ago from Thames valley offering me a deal to renew 12 months early both my shotgun and firearms for £25.its with them right now and its the first time i have to fill in the doctor permission part of the form so i will let you know if i get a bill .i have given my doctor venison more than once so hopefully no bill

 

[Greenmist]

I've put in for my FAC renewal – now my GP, in north Oxfordshire, has sent me a letter saying to do the paperwork necessary will cost me £36. I know it's not a lot of money, but I resent paying it! Do I have to? Anyone got any similar experiences re Thames Valley Police - will they just proceed with the renewal if I do nothing? Thanks in advance.

Not wanting to cause a slagging match, but have you contacted your shooting organisation and if so what was their advice?