Police report into firearms licensing in Cumbria. BASC response.

[Simon Clarke]

The following press release has been sent to home affairs correspondents, crime correspondents, news agencies, the shooting press and all local newspapers in the UK.

Bill Harriman was interviewed on BBC Breakfast News this morning and Steve Woodhall was interviewed on BBC Radio Cumbria. Comments from our statement have been used by the Press Association and BBC News are hoping to interview Bill Harriman later on today.

BASC statement on findings of ACPO review into firearms licensing procedures in Cumbria.

The UK’s largest shooting organisation, the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC), welcomes the detailed report of a review of the granting of firearms licences to Derrick Bird, who murdered 12 people in Cumbria in June.

The review was undertaken by the chair of the Association of Chief Police Officers' Firearms and Explosives Licensing Working Group, Adrian Whiting, who is also Assistant Chief Constable of Dorset Police.

The report states that the police, other agencies and the public had no information which should reasonably have led to the revocation of Bird’s certificates and that no immediately obvious changes need to be made either within the Cumbria constabulary or in the law which would have prevented the tragedy.

Bill Harriman, BASC’s director of firearms, said: “The UK’s firearms laws are among the strictest in the world. The licensing process includes home visits by the police, background checks and may also involve medical checks. BASC will work through the details of the report and its recommendations with great care. UK gun owners go through an extremely rigorous licensing process to ensure as far as possible that they pose no risk to public safety and keep their firearms secure. As the Prime Minister said, you cannot legislate for the moment when a switch flicks in someone’s head.”

The two parts of the report can be found here: http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/CumbriaReportPart1.pdf

http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/CumbriaReportPart2.pdf


Simon Clarke
Head of Press Relations
BASC
simon.clarke@basc.org.uk

 

[DC .270]

Thanks Simon.

It is good to see that there are no major changes to the way our certificates and licenses are going to be administered. Certainly nothing that I fear will cripple the shooting community as far as I can make out. I don't see it being a bad thing having medical checks will be more regular, or that peopl on suspended prison sentences wont be granted them.

Hopefully there aren't any other changes on their way on the hush hush.

DC

 

[flytie]

Simon, great links thank you! It is interesting about the medical proposals. Patient confidentiality in the medical profession is paramount, and breaches of it lead to instant dismissal. I wonder how they will reconcile this?

I also wonder if this could lead to a standardisation across constabularies, leading to the use of ACPO guidelines in conditions on FAC's?

ft

 

[mickjgardner]

in respect of doctors,mine used to sign my certificate years ago but this was outlawed as they charged for it .just put a box on the application that the doctor has to sign,Seems simple to me
As for using one form for all shotgun and firearms,this would save most of us on this site a lot of hassle

 

[smudge262]

one cert for all makes sense to me ! would save everybody a lot of time and hassel !

 

[finnbear270]

Once they see sense is involved, that'l be the end of that!

 

[barry thom]

Hi Guys I heard on the news a differant story, last night 6 pm news, mentioned that the law will need tightened.
I only caught the last bit, i watched the later news but it didnt mention it again.
6.0 Summary of recommendations, 10, Introduce a single certificate type for both s1 firearms and shotguns.
This appears to imply shotguns on same approvale as firearms.
Barry

PS its in http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/CumbriaReportPart2.pdf

 

[Si]

Good work BASC

 

[JC275]

I see the Police came out of this scot free, there was nothing they could have done to prevent this? Derrick Bird had been arrested three times, including once for obtaining money with menaces, yet he was allowed to keep his FAC and SGC? I will probably get shot down for saying this but sometimes the Police aren't tough enough. I know hindsight is a wonderful thing but three arrests tells me he was a wrong'un. JC

 

[204 Ruger]

I see the Police came out of this scot free, there was nothing they could have done to prevent this? Derrick Bird had been arrested three times, including once for obtaining money with menaces, yet he was allowed to keep his FAC and SGC? I will probably get shot down for saying this but sometimes the Police aren't tough enough. I know hindsight is a wonderful thing but three arrests tells me he was a wrong'un. JC

Not by me you wont. How can we go through such tough criminal checks etc when we get a licence but then not revoke someones licence following being arrested for potentially violent behaviour. Unreal.

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Hi JC and stevienicknacks...

Funnily enough it was the head of firearms Allan Whitting who was in charge of overseeing the Cumbria Shooting inquiry that also had the common sense and integrity to reinstate my FAC after it was revoked...

And for that i am eternally thankfull..

Before we are ambassadors for shooting or anything else we are MEN first...

And that means protecting your family,yourself and any other innocent before worrying about that bit of paper..

I absolutely can relate to your posts in perspective of the hindsight in this case and obtaining money by deception.

But i would say on behalf of myself and many friends that are ex forces and civies shooting for many years.. At some time or other weve all had a colourfull moment...

Is it really so black and white to remove a FAC.. Our passion, interest, way of life so easily?

The Police dont have an easy job in equating the good from the bad.. Not all those that have served a prison sentence or recieved a caution are bad people...

I dont envy the Police whose responsability for making the right decision can be scrutinised so venemously when hindsight is involved.. Most people i am sure dont come up on the radar again , but as in all walks of life, somebody will be given the benefit of the doubt and go on to let them down..

Unless you expect the Police to remove all Firearms from anybody involved in any infringement ???

Terry - not whiter than white but a patriot of England and a good father to four children..

 

[204 Ruger]

Hi JC and stevienicknacks...

Funnily enough it was the head of firearms Allan Whitting who was in charge of overseeing the Cumbria Shooting inquiry that also had the common sense and integrity to reinstate my FAC after it was revoked...

And for that i am eternally thankfull..

Before we are ambassadors for shooting or anything else we are MEN first...

And that means protecting your family,yourself and any other innocent before worrying about that bit of paper..

I absolutely can relate to your posts in perspective of the hindsight in this case and obtaining money by deception.

But i would say on behalf of myself and many friends that are ex forces and civies shooting for many years.. At some time or other weve all had a colourfull moment...

Is it really so black and white to remove a FAC.. Our passion, interest, way of life so easily?

The Police dont have an easy job in equating the good from the bad.. Not all those that have served a prison sentence or recieved a caution are bad people...

I dont envy the Police whose responsability for making the right decision can be scrutinised so venemously when hindsight is involved.. Most people i am sure dont come up on the radar again , but as in all walks of life, somebody will be given the benefit of the doubt and go on to let them down..

Unless you expect the Police to remove all Firearms from anybody involved in any infringement ???

Terry - not whiter than white but a patriot of England and a good father to four children..

Fair enough, I can see your point of view. I too am not white than white but if I committed a violent act(even in defence of my family) and as a result lost my FAC I dont think I would be surprised or expect anything else.

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Stevie...

Sad to see that in defence of your family you would not be suprised or not expect to loose your FAC..

Supprisingly enough the Police can sometimes be much more sensible than you..

Terry

 

[204 Ruger]

Stevie...

Sad to see that in defence of your family you would not be suprised or not expect to loose your FAC..

Supprisingly enough the Police can sometimes be much more sensible than you..

Terry

I guess my experience of the police/courts is slightly different to yours!!

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Oh Stevie,

This pit you dig , gets deeper by the minute..

First you say all those that seek to protect their loved ones should automatically loose their FAC no matter what the circumstances, right or wrong.. Including those that have come up on the Police radar..

Next you state.. You infact DO have experience of the judicial system personally..

Why have you not returned your FAC.. ?

Getting personal on an open forum can become tiresome as i get oh so bored real easily.. But your statements seem very contradictorary..

Best Wishes

Terry

 

[204 Ruger]

Oh Stevie,

This pit you dig , gets deeper by the minute..

First you say all those that seek to protect their loved ones should automatically loose their FAC no matter what the circumstances, right or wrong.. Including those that have come up on the Police radar..

Next you state.. You infact DO have experience of the judicial system personally..

Why have you not returned your FAC.. ?

Getting personal on an open forum can become tiresome as i get oh so bored real easily.. But your statements seem very contradictorary..

Best Wishes

Terry

It appears that you missed my point and I certainly didnt contradict myself or admit to have personally been in any trouble with the law(I said my experience of the Police/Courts, very different). I think your taking this thread in a direction that it was not intended so if you wish to continue with your personal thread around right and wrong I suggest you send me a PM. ATB Steve

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

I guess my experience of the police/courts is slightly different to yours!!

So are you a lawyer..??

Barrister..

Steve... you stated... If you were ever involved in any violent dispute regardless of family or personal protection you would be happy to loose youre FAC...

You stated this so no argument....

Fortunately there are some.... Not all .... but there are some Police that would soundly disagree with you.. And for that most of society will be eternally thankfull..

You also stated.... You have a personal experience of the police / courts which is slightly diferent to mine...

So, your honour ... i await your explanation...

Dont post sh*t on an open forum unless youve got it nailed buddy...

 

[204 Ruger]

So are you a lawyer..??

Barrister..

Steve... you stated... If you were ever involved in any violent dispute regardless of family or personal protection you would be happy to loose youre FAC...

You stated this so no argument....

Fortunately there are some.... Not all .... but there are some Police that would soundly disagree with you.. And for that most of society will be eternally thankfull..

You also stated.... You have a personal experience of the police / courts which is slightly diferent to mine...

So, your honour ... i await your explanation...

Dont post sh*t on an open forum unless youve got it nailed buddy...

I didn’t want an open debate around this on the forum and did offer PS1 the opportunity to discuss this matter personally so apologies Administrators.

However!!!!!

I think you need to go back and read what I actually wrote rather than making things up for your own argument. I never said I would be happy to lose my licence if I was in trouble with the Law. I said quote " I don’t think I would be surprised or expect anything else", my point being that from my experience of the injustice of the law I would expect that the police would take my FAC from me. Some of this is based on personal experience mainly from friends who have been treated in justly (IMO), as an individual(although not whiter than white from my younger days) I have no criminal record. There are many counts where people have been prosecuted for defending their family and possessions, including the farmer who was sent to prison for defending his own property with his shotgun injuring the culprit. Do I agree with his sentence absolutely not, but following this I would 'expect' to be treated the same way by the court if I did the same thing. If I got into a brawl on a night out and injured someone I would expect that my FAC would be taken from me. Do I think that is fair? No of course not but I can pretty much guarantee that is what would happen so I would ‘expect’ it to but not be ‘happy’ about it..

Its clear from your concern around this and your mention that you have had your FAC reinstated that you have been in trouble with the law and I am pleased for you that you got your FAC back provided you are not for example a violent person and have been convicted of such. That is where my initial response related, the point initially was around Derek Bird’s previous convictions, putting the drink driving and theft to one side 'obtaining money with menaces' is basically blackmail and could be deemed as threatening behavior', with a potential sentence of 10 years imprisonment. IMO I don’t think someone behaving in that way should still have their FAC, its a personal opinion, I didn’t say that petty crime should result in FAC being withdrawn.

Apologies if my comments touched a nerve, it was not my intention. ATB Steve

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

I can live with that Steve

 

[204 Ruger]

I can live with that Steve

Glad we found some resolution. By the way utmost respect for anyone who has served in the forces