John muir trust: Managing deer for nature

[tom]

Morning ,
Just seen a really interesting video on you tube (title above )
I stalk in Scotland and hear things about the John muir trust and most are not pleasant ,so I’m interested in peoples views on them ?
Clearly there are two sides to every story and in my opinion I found this video really interesting and they made some really good points ,
I am a deer manager in the south and we are trying to achieve sustainable deer management on our estate ,when I started we had a huge population of Roe deer which after 14 years (took me about 5 years) to get on top of the population .
We now get natural re -generation , acceptable levels of damage on new plantations etc .
However by managing the deer is this way it does not suit client stalking at all ,as we now have low levels of deer and were not in the business of ripping people off for a good walk in the countryside !
We do a bit but not a lot as we just don’t have lots of deer for people to shoot .
So it does interest me when you see all these videos on the internet of people taking clients out to woods / fields etc that are brimming with deer ; groups of roe in dozens etc ;
I would be interested to see the impact level in the woods ?
So why are there so many deer in Scotland ? I have always wondered why they haven’t got the same seasons as the south ?
We stalk Hinds in the winter and we see dozens of stags laughing at us ! In the south you can shoot them till the end on April !

This post is meant as a friendly debate not slagging anybody off or criticism of anybody .
I hope to do a course on sustainable deer management next year and just interested in people’s different views .
Thanks

 

[User00003]

There are not that many deer in Scotland, at all,,and in my opinion they are managed far too brutally in commercial blocks

 

[sikamalc]

There idea of deer management as far as I have seen over the past years is almost total eradication of deer. Its never changed in my view.

 

[Heimdall]

I stalk in Scotland on a syndicate and we know out cull targets but blocks of FC forest next to us are hammered night shooting etc. Seems total eradication is the policy.

 

[Orion]

There idea of deer management as far as I have seen over the past years is almost total eradication of deer. Its never changed in my view.

Are they also the outfit that have a policy of leaving the carcass on the hill for ‘recycling’?

 

[levigsp]

John Muir trust should be prosecuted for the damage they do to Scottish natural heritage! They practice total eradication of deer, as do the forestry people, all with the blessing of the government body responsible the well being of deer etc, Scottish natural heritage !!

 

[Heym SR20]

There are very very very mixed views on Deer Stalking in Scotland. Stalking Estates were pretty much valued on the basis of the average number of good stags taken each year so they were managed on that basis. Good large populations of deer, supplementary feed during the winter time and lots of let days for stags during August, September and October, with good hind stalking in the winter. I used to help with the hind cull on an estate were we were shooting 2 to 300 hinds each winter and it produced 100 plus good stags as well.

A lot of Scotland suffers from overgrazing pressure with quite sever soil erosion. I have seen similar in places like Ethiopia were all the trees have been taken out and just goats left. The fact that is wet, just means the erosion happens a lot quicker.

I have been close to one piece of John Muir Trust ground on Skye, that used to be a stalking estate. Lots of deer, lots of stalking but not a lot of trees. The estate was sold to the JMT, but the original owners still have access for stalking. When I first went up there average weight of stags was 13 or 14 stone - typical scruffy west highland stags. There has been a veavy cull and deer numbers are one third of what they used to be. There is lots of natural regrowth of woodland. Deer numbers are much lower, but the deer are much healthier and weights are typically 20 plus stone for stags.

During this cull quite a number of hinds were shot in very inaccessible places - ie you went over two munroes to get there. Quality of the carcasses was very poor and unfit for humane consumption and many were left out on the hill to support eagles etc.

And Scottish mountains can be very harsh in winter. The snow is not fluffy powdery stuff. It is often has the consistency of wet concrete. In many places deer are now fenced onto the high ground - they cannot get into the wooded and low grounds that they used to winter on. The will usually seek shelter on the lee side of mountains, and often in gullies and corries. The downside of this with a winter gale is you get a lot of snow being transported from the windward side and fills up the gullies where the deer are sheltering. Come spring time as the snow melts you will often find several dead deer in a gully or behind a wall. Deer also try and move through the snow and frequently get stuck - all fall through the crust. Again get frozen. There also plenty of avalanches. These are not the big powdery things you get in the Alps that you see on skiing videos. They are usually full depth slumps of wet snow, and friends in the mountain rescue describe bodies that are recovered as having been through a concrete mixer. Deer will suffer the same results.

The challenge with the JMT is that their land is some iconic parts of the Scottish Mountains, with lots of people accessing those mountains. Of course they will be finding such casualties and blaming the land owners/ managers and how evil everybody is. And whilst deer soon get used to walkers being about, they will still be somewhat disturbed and pushed out of the in bye lands down in the bottom.

Last year in April I was walking in Glen Etive. I counted eight deer carcasses in one of the gullies leading out of the glen, and three in the main river. A week before the whole area had been deep in snow. These were all pretty fresh and clearly snow victims. Lots of people saying they had been shot and left. If they had it must have been a laser gun, as none had any gunshot wounds. They had all got trapped in the snow or fallen through snow and ice.

I can very much see both sides of the equation, but cannot help feeling that the pendulum has swung far to hard towards total eradication of deer, and that they are not recognised and managed as a valuable resource. For most people a Roe Buck or a large Stag is the symbol of wild Scotland, and its shame that in many parts you now have to go a long way to see one.

But there is now very good money available from the public purse to go and kill deer with you being paid by the number of deer that are shot. If you are on a contract you will use every aid you can including thermal and night vision and when you go into an area on a contract you will shoot everything - each carcass is worth a few hundred pounds just in cull fees. Its not management, is deer eradication.

 

[bogtrotter]

I would take issue with several of your points.
.

1 The John Muit Trusts idea of deer management is to eradicate them , is that what you want

2 Why are the seasons not the same in Scotland as in the south, Firstly Scotland though part of the Uk is a country in its own right with its own laws , secondly the law as it is , suits the conditions in Scotland , during the rut hill stags can loose as much as a fifth of their body weight and with with winter approaching and little chance of regaining it they are at
their lowest ebb ,they don't need any further hassle and unnecessary disturbance during this time.

3 There are too many deer in Scotland, maybe in some areas but certainly not all, the key to population control is
females you will not reduce the population by increasing the length of the stag season, there is already an imbalance of
the sexes in many places where it difficult to find mature stags that is stags over six years of age , increaeing the length
of the stag season would only make that worse.

4 For many Highland estates stalking or grouse shooting are the only sources of revenue , and employment for all the talk of rewilding including that by our own government it will not provide income in the Highlands, trees will only
grow so far up a hill, and even where they will only provide limited employment.

If its not broken don't fix it.

 

[Highlandsjohn]

Thanks for that Heym ..

 

[Heym SR20]

I would take issue with several of your points.
.

1 The John Muit Trusts idea of deer management is to eradicate them , is that what you want

2 Why are the seasons not the same in Scotland as in the south, Firstly Scotland though part of the Uk is a country in its own right with its own laws , secondly the law as it is , suits the conditions in Scotland , during the rut hill stags can loose as much as a fifth of their body weight and with with winter approaching and little chance of regaining it they are at
their lowest ebb ,they don't need any further hassle and unnecessary disturbance during this time.

3 There are too many deer in Scotland, maybe in some areas but certainly not all, the key to population control is
females you will not reduce the population by increasing the length of the stag season, there is already an imbalance of
the sexes in many places where it difficult to find mature stags that is stags over six years of age , increaeing the length
of the stag season would only make that worse.

4 For many Highland estates stalking or grouse shooting are the only sources of revenue , and employment for all the talk of rewilding including that by our own government it will not provide income in the Highlands, trees will only
grow so far up a hill, and even where they will only provide limited employment.

If its not broken don't fix it.

I don't disagree with you Bogtrotter. My experience on Skye with JMT people on the ground was to to eradicate deer, but to bring numbers down to sustainable levels and to allow an element of regeneration. And totally agree that SNH and government are trying to implement a one size fits all approach.

Blanket coniferous forest does not provide much economic income, nor does selling off the land rights to wind farms, nor for that matter does Tourism etc.

In rural Scotland we should be looking to build a vibrant and sustainable economy based on multiple different land uses with deer, mountains, rivers, sea, agriculture and woodlands all being at the heart of it, with the products being a complete mix of tourism (including stalking, shooting, fishing as well as walking, bird and wildlife watching, mountain biking, canoeing skiing etc), food - not only basic food stuffs but real added value (smoked venison / salmon etc), forest products including timber, but also building materials to local furniture etc. This all requires vision and investment to make it work. But at the moment, the biggest challenge is the brain drain with people going to the cities to get work.

At the moment - the pretty areas are crowded out with tourists. The rest are being planted with wind farms.

 

[tom]

Thanks Heym , some real insight in to the real issues of Scotland’s deer management,
A balanced view and really interesting points .
One point bogtroter , we all know deer are managed by culling females ,but the management of stags is very different ,
In the the south we would cull young stags to reduce the population where in Scotland it appears they are left as they might make a larger stag ,
Surely if you cull some of the stags out as they approach winter there will be more food for them to survive the winter ?
I don’t of course want deer eradication and according to the John muir trust video nether do they ? Unless they are telling porkies !
The video is interesting if you haven’t seen it .
Good to have some interesting debate , instead talking about head shooting !

 

[levigsp]

Thanks Heym , some real insight in to the real issues of Scotland’s deer management,
A balanced view and really interesting points .
One point bogtroter , we all know deer are managed by culling females ,but the management of stags is very different ,
In the the south we would cull young stags to reduce the population where in Scotland it appears they are left as they might make a larger stag ,
Surely if you cull some of the stags out as they approach winter there will be more food for them to survive the winter ?
I don’t of course want deer eradication and according to the John muir trust video nether do they ? Unless they are telling porkies !
The video is interesting if you haven’t seen it .
Good to have some interesting debate , instead talking about head shooting !

John muir trust are telling more than porkies, visit the café in Gairloch and you would know exactly what they are.
Some of the best deer management I seen is in Europe, where all red Stags are left to see how they mature, and malform is shot, rest are left until mature, once they have passed on their genes they are shot. Controlling the female numbers keeps the whole herd in check. There is more than enough food for the Red Deer in Scotland, lack of food is not an issue. The issue is them not being able to get to the food when the weather turns bad, to many fences put up with government grants stopping deer movement.
That is the reason good estates feed in winter to supply the deer with food where they can get at it, same in Germany and Poland, but bad estates feed to stop the deer heading away to find food on neighbours ground in the belief they wont come back.
Finally when it comes to reforesting, its not the deer that god rid of the trees, first the rising water table destroyed most of the Caledonian forest, followed by man destroying the rest. Huge areas of Scotland that was forest, will never grow Pines naturally as its now too wet, so it needs man to drain it, hardly natural regeneration.
Yes deer do destroy trees, but how many? Plant 1000 hectres anywhere in Scotland unfenced and a % will be killed of damaged, but the majority will out grow the deer and eventually provide a home for the deer. The trouble is that the forestry boys want EVERY tree and the John Muir trust want Caledonian Pines to grow on land higher up the slopes where trees never grew in the past, and again no trees to be nibbled.!

 

[User00003]

John muir trust are telling more than porkies, visit the café in Gairloch and you would know exactly what they are.
Some of the best deer management I seen is in Europe, where all red Stags are left to see how they mature, and malform is shot, rest are left until mature, once they have passed on their genes they are shot. Controlling the female numbers keeps the whole herd in check. There is more than enough food for the Red Deer in Scotland, lack of food is not an issue. The issue is them not being able to get to the food when the weather turns bad, to many fences put up with government grants stopping deer movement.
That is the reason good estates feed in winter to supply the deer with food where they can get at it, same in Germany and Poland, but bad estates feed to stop the deer heading away to find food on neighbours ground in the belief they wont come back.
Finally when it comes to reforesting, its not the deer that god rid of the trees, first the rising water table destroyed most of the Caledonian forest, followed by man destroying the rest. Huge areas of Scotland that was forest, will never grow Pines naturally as its now too wet, so it needs man to drain it, hardly natural regeneration.
Yes deer do destroy trees, but how many? Plant 1000 hectres anywhere in Scotland unfenced and a % will be killed of damaged, but the majority will out grow the deer and eventually provide a home for the deer. The trouble is that the forestry boys want EVERY tree and the John Muir trust want Caledonian Pines to grow on land higher up the slopes where trees never grew in the past, and again no trees to be nibbled.!

Finally someone gets it, good man!

 

[Moray Outfitting]

My worry is that if we get rid of the deer and our hills are covered in trees of various species, why are visitors going to come much further north than Perth.? One tree looks the same as the next and if the conservationists get their way all the woodland animals and birds that are seen in the Highlands will end up in the south. So again why bother spending money on fuel (which you may get slagged for) to go any further North?? Unfortunately I have experience of workers in groups like JMT, NT, RSPB who know that the policies are not right but have to toe the party line to keep jobs...J

 

[slider]

There are 2 types of "deer" manager. Ones that manage deer for sporting purposes and ones that manage deer to reduce competition on habitats - be they hills, woodland, farming or particularly sensitive ecology.

The two are never going to agree. The first type often show deep concern about increasing gun control, with many fearing our guns will be taken away eventually. The second why there will always be a need for stalkers and guns.

 

[Mossypaw]

John muir trust are telling more than porkies, visit the café in Gairloch and you would know exactly what they are.
Some of the best deer management I seen is in Europe, where all red Stags are left to see how they mature, and malform is shot, rest are left until mature, once they have passed on their genes they are shot. Controlling the female numbers keeps the whole herd in check. There is more than enough food for the Red Deer in Scotland, lack of food is not an issue. The issue is them not being able to get to the food when the weather turns bad, to many fences put up with government grants stopping deer movement.
That is the reason good estates feed in winter to supply the deer with food where they can get at it, same in Germany and Poland, but bad estates feed to stop the deer heading away to find food on neighbours ground in the belief they wont come back.
Finally when it comes to reforesting, its not the deer that god rid of the trees, first the rising water table destroyed most of the Caledonian forest, followed by man destroying the rest. Huge areas of Scotland that was forest, will never grow Pines naturally as its now too wet, so it needs man to drain it, hardly natural regeneration.
Yes deer do destroy trees, but how many? Plant 1000 hectres anywhere in Scotland unfenced and a % will be killed of damaged, but the majority will out grow the deer and eventually provide a home for the deer. The trouble is that the forestry boys want EVERY tree and the John Muir trust want Caledonian Pines to grow on land higher up the slopes where trees never grew in the past, and again no trees to be nibbled.!

I’m intrigued, I guess you mean the ‘mountain cafe’ in Gairloch. I pass it all the time, but have never been in (not my kind of place or kind of owner)
What is in there ?

 

[Acmac25]

I’m intrigued, I guess you mean the ‘mountain cafe’ in Gairloch. I pass it all the time, but have never been in (not my kind of place or kind of owner)
What is in there ?

Probably a load of people that have applied to shoot for fc or john muir trust and not been successful, telling tales about the awful things they do.

 

[Orion]

My worry is that if we get rid of the deer and our hills are covered in trees of various species, why are visitors going to come much further north than Perth.? One tree looks the same as the next and if the conservationists get their way all the woodland animals and birds that are seen in the Highlands will end up in the south.

But you’ll have all those luvverly wolves as an attraction won’t you?

 

[foxdropper]

Thanks Heym , some real insight in to the real issues of Scotland’s deer management,
A balanced view and really interesting points .
One point bogtroter , we all know deer are managed by culling females ,but the management of stags is very different ,
In the the south we would cull young stags to reduce the population where in Scotland it appears they are left as they might make a larger stag ,
Surely if you cull some of the stags out as they approach winter there will be more food for them to survive the winter ?
I don’t of course want deer eradication and according to the John muir trust video nether do they ? Unless they are telling porkies !
The video is interesting if you haven’t seen it .
Good to have some interesting debate , instead talking about head shooting !

What percentage of culled hinds are head shot ?

 

[levigsp]

I’m intrigued, I guess you mean the ‘mountain cafe’ in Gairloch. I pass it all the time, but have never been in (not my kind of place or kind of owner)
What is in there ?

A huge wall devoted to anti hunt/shoot fish. Posters telling people how to disturb legit stalking and to inform us that only employed deer contractors should stalk to rid the hill of the rich people owned deer. Posters offering advice on putting up wires to decapitate dogs and or horse riders on hunts, yet others telling people how to knock people of quads if they suspect them of being involved in the badger cull. the list is endless.. There are even numbers to contact for financial help to destroy legal hunting activities. It has been reported by more than one person to the police and they don't have the time to look into it.