.222 or .22-250?

[wraith]

Who does a 50+ grain 20 cal bullet that’s designed to deform in a predictable manner.
I ask as I have a 20 Tac with a 9” twist barrel and would be interested in what bullet would be legal.

i think spud was selling them i have 50g holow points but use 7mm rem mag for deer as for predictical manner i think most heads fired in to balistic gel will deform holow points deform mush room as do soft points balistic tips explode i dont know all the ins and outs off it this is somthing you will have to look in to bud if a head deforms consistentley then that was predictable it would be up to the law to say diffrent but if tested in court did the the head expand when the fired it in to a tank off water it will expand if this can be done on more than one firing then the head deformed in a predictical manner you have abided by the law have you not

 

[Sonicdmb73]

i think spud was selling them i have 50g holow points but use 7mm rem mag for deer as for predictical manner i think most heads fired in to balistic gel will deform holow points deform mush room as do soft points balistic tips explode i dont know all the ins and outs off it this is somthing you will have to look in to bud if a head deforms consistentley then that was predictable it would be up to the law to say diffrent but if tested in court did the the head expand when the fired it in to a tank off water it will expand if this can be done on more than one firing then the head deformed in a predictical manner you have abided by the law have you not

To the best of my knowledge there’s only Varmint bullets available in 20 cal. I have a few hundred Berger 50’s and around a hundred 55 grain ones. But they don’t mushroom they fragment. I wouldn’t want to be the test case to argue that they were predictably deforming.
The Berger’s are hollow points not ballistic tips. In fact the most extreme ones for fragmenting are 32 grain hollow points. If I drive them too fast they disintegrate in flight.

 

[Dawnrazor]

Iv shot foxs with a 22.250.neck and shoulder gone but still had enough steam too run adrenalin gives them a strong will too live.

I've shot with lots of different people who used a .22-250 and have seen as many running foxes with that caliber as I've seen with any other caliber, the .22-250 was all the rage after I left school and started as a Gamekeeper, some bloody good and experienced rifle shots too.

 

[Gd87]

This dog fox didn’t complain about my
22-250 after he killed a ewe and 3 lambs.
Dropped on the spot.

 

[Miki]

i think spud was selling them i have 50g holow points but use 7mm rem mag for deer as for predictical manner i think most heads bullets fired in to balistic gel will deform holow points deform mush room as do soft points balistic tips explode i dont know all the ins and outs off it this is somthing you will have to look in to bud if a head bullet deforms consistentley then that was predictable it would be up to the law to say diffrent but if tested in court did the the head bullet expand when the fired it in to a tank off water it will expand if this can be done on more than one firing then the head bullet deformed in a predictical manner you have abided by the law have you not

@wraith I have changed your original post for you so it makes a semblance of sense, 'heads' are part of the cartridge so don't deform (hopefully). Bullets are designed to expand in different ways, ballistic tips are not designed to make bullets explode, they are designed to increase the BC, to make the bullet more slippery as it passes through the atmosphere and keep up the velocity over distance. Velocity + weight coming to a sudden stop = terminal energy. Bullets are designed by large, very experienced companies, they deform in a predictable way. Understanding that the correct technical term is 'bullet' would be a good start.

With regards to the rest of what you are trying to say .... i'm at a loss. The Ruger .204 is a Varmint round, don't use it, or encourage others to use it on deer.

 

[cjm1066]

I am not sure if the priming compound contains lead, but the heads do look to be monolithic, not sure of the ballistic coefficient though.

 

[Sharpie]

A point worth noting, if you are a target shooter, or simply use target ranges for zeroing, practice or load development in anticipation of sporting use, is that the 22-250 greatly exceeds the range velocity limits of e.g. Bisley, and other military ranges. So may not be used there.

E.g. Bisley regulations:

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Seems like you missed the target… If you are searching for information on the National Shooting Centre please visit our new website at: nationalshootingcentre.co.uk

nra.org.uk

a. Rifle ranges, no specific calibre limitation but:
i. a maximum muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s (3280 ft/s)

c. Cartridges which, when normally loaded, would exceed the ME/MV limits of any specific range, may not be used, on that range, even if downloaded.

Also note:

5. The following ammunition is prohibited on Bisley ranges: ...
b. Projectiles that are not constructed of pure lead, lead alloy, or a lead core with a jacket of gilding metal or soft iron. Lead-free mono-metallic bullets may be used during specific events that are controlled and planned by the NSC. They are otherwise forbidden.

 

[Matt.]

I use a .22-250 for all my foxing, I think it’s a great round, very gutsy and obviously flat shooting.

But I do have a serious itch for the .222 though, been shooting plenty of times with a two different mates who use them for foxing, I’ve seen them drop foxes stone dead at decent ranges, lovely smooth effortless efficient little cartridge, plus with a decent moderator they're so damn quiet.

 

[User00035]

The triple is perfectly reasonable as a long range rabbit round as well - whereas a .22-250 is over the top. A good .222 is so accurate you can head shoot past 200 yards with ease and if you reload its cheap enough to feed and moderates to HMR noise levels.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

I use a .22-250 for all my foxing, I think it’s a great round, very gutsy and obviously flat shooting.

But I do have a serious itch for the .222 though, been shooting plenty of times with a two different mates who use them for foxing, I’ve seen them drop foxes stone dead at decent ranges, lovely smooth effortless efficient little cartridge, plus with a decent moderator they're so damn quiet.

I have a 222 and it is quiet and well mannered. I have been out plenty of times with mates who have 22-250’s and used 55 blitz king and 58 Vmax in 243 which isn’t a million miles off it in performance.
However I have found the best of both worlds IMO as quiet and mild mannered as the 222 and hits like a 22-250. In the 20 Tac, you get the same terminal effect as you see many times with 22-250 but without all the noise and muzzle rise. I don’t pick up the 222 anything like as much as I did. In fact when we get sorted with his FAC my lad is going to have it as “his” rifle. Don’t get me wrong given the choice I would not be without one in the cabinet. It is fantastic out to 300 yards or so. But the Tac gains from then on

 

[wraith]

@wraith I have changed your original post for you so it makes a semblance of sense, 'heads' are part of the cartridge so don't deform (hopefully). Bullets are designed to expand in different ways, ballistic tips are not designed to make bullets explode, they are designed to increase the BC, to make the bullet more slippery as it passes through the atmosphere and keep up the velocity over distance. Velocity + weight coming to a sudden stop = terminal energy. Bullets are designed by large, very experienced companies, they deform in a predictable way. Understanding that the correct technical term is 'bullet' would be a good start.

With regards to the rest of what you are trying to say .... i'm at a loss. The Ruger .204 is a Varmint round, don't use it, or encourage others to use it on deer.

hi bud the 204 uses a 222 magnum case with more powder and power than the 222 with the same bullet lets say 50g it easely meats the recomendations for roe deer in scotland as stated i use a 7mm rem mag for deer but others on hear use the 204 for roe deer in scotland for years more deer were shot with a 22 rim fire and shot guns if you dont think a 50g bullet traveling at 3500fps will kill a roe deer then what can i say 222 223 22;250 are all varmint guns yet are all deer legal for roe in scotland so if you want to amend this go for it but look up scotts law on whats alowed in scotland and yes im dislexic im at a loss the .222 .223 22;250 are all varmint rounds yet are all roe deer leagle should i not encourege others to shoot roe deer with those calibers the 204 out performs them t

 

[Miki]

hi bud the 204 uses a 222 magnum case with more powder and power than the 222 with the same bullet lets say 50g it easely meats the recomendations for roe deer in scotland as stated i use a 7mm rem mag for deer but others on hear use the 204 for roe deer in scotland for years more deer were shot with a 22 rim fire and shot guns if you dont think a 50g bullet traveling at 3500fps will kill a roe deer then what can i say 222 223 22;250 are all varmint guns yet are all deer legal for roe in scotland so if you want to amend this go for it but look up scotts law on whats alowed in scotland and yes im dislexic im at a loss the .222 .223 22;250 are all varmint rounds yet are all roe deer leagle should i not encourege others to shoot roe deer with those calibers the 204 out performs them t

Hi
Typically a 20cal rifle uses a 1:12 twist. 1:12 is not fast enough to stabilise a 50gr bullet as with such a narrow cross section it would be overly long. 40gr is about the maximum. All of the other chamberings you mentioned use a .224 bullet which will stabilise 50gr in a 1:12 (55 is about the maximum) and several of the cals you mention offer a faster twist rate (1:9 for example) as standard, which will happily stabilise a 70gr bullet.
The other consideration is the type of bullet that is available. In 224 there are several soft nosed, controlled expansion projectiles available, specifically designed for shooting small deer, as well as the more frangible Varmint types. Shooting a Roe deer with a fast, highly frangible bullet will cause excessive damage, good for Mr Fox but not so attractive on Bambi.

If we were to fire a .204 VMax 40gr (highly frangible) bullet @ 3500fps this would create 1086ft-lb, so if you had a 50gr bullet legally that's enough energy... the .204R is a Varmint rifle, so is the ammunition available for it - by design !
This comment (by @I. Farticus ) sums it up for me ... .204 for Roe in Scotland?

 

[Sonicdmb73]

hi bud the 204 uses a 222 magnum case with more powder and power than the 222 with the same bullet lets say 50g it easely meats the recomendations for roe deer in scotland as stated i use a 7mm rem mag for deer but others on hear use the 204 for roe deer in scotland for years more deer were shot with a 22 rim fire and shot guns if you dont think a 50g bullet traveling at 3500fps will kill a roe deer then what can i say 222 223 22;250 are all varmint guns yet are all deer legal for roe in scotland so if you want to amend this go for it but look up scotts law on whats alowed in scotland and yes im dislexic im at a loss the .222 .223 22;250 are all varmint rounds yet are all roe deer leagle should i not encourege others to shoot roe deer with those calibers the 204 out performs them t

I have had a look but cannot find any factory ammunition in 50 grain for the 204 Ruger.
At 1 in 12” even with a bit extra speed you will struggle to stabilise a 50 grain bullet.
According to Berger you need a 1 in 9” twist.
As for 224 calibre bullets not all are equal. There is a good choice of bullets with those designed to fragment for varminting to Deer specific bullets. So I have to disagree that 222 etc are just Varmint guns. As it’s bullet construction not just speed or the lack of it that make the difference. I can load my 6.5x55 with a bullet suitable for foxes or one for Moose is it a Varmint or a deer rifle. The same applies to the 243 with a 55 it’s a Varmint gun a 105 soft point and it’ll drop anything you care to in this country. I can go on as the bullet range for many calibre’s make them dual purpose.
But back to my main point I don’t believe that the 20 calibre bullets available meet the legal criteria. I don’t believe that there’s an off the shelf option for 204 Ruger 50 grain ammunition or rifle suitable. I haven’t found anything anywhere, perhaps you have a link?
Will my 20 Tac with a 50 grain bullet kill a Roe? I don’t doubt it would. But would I bet my FAC on the bullets available being legal? That is in my mind the real question as there’s no case law I know of and I would not want to be the first in Court.

 

[6pt-sika]

I’ve got a Ruger #1 custom barreled job in 22-250 AI that I’ve shot sub 1/10 MOA groups with . I also have a trio of 222’s of which I’ve shot sub 1/10 MOA . Now to the facts , I’ve not shot the Ruger in five years , matter of fact I’d get rid of it other than the fact that my father wanted it so it’ll stick around . The 222’s get shot regularly , and will continue as long as I’m able to load for them and shoot .

 

[jb1]

A point worth noting, if you are a target shooter, or simply use target ranges for zeroing, practice or load development in anticipation of sporting use, is that the 22-250 greatly exceeds the range velocity limits of e.g. Bisley, and other military ranges. So may not be used there.

E.g. Bisley regulations:

Yes you need to be careful, shooting something that fast is dangerous at Bisley.

Its one of those draconian laws of the NRA.

 

[Hunter 6.5]

I never shoot other 22cf than 22-250,without advocating for anything ,reading all post in this thread i am really surprised by some statements
1st - 22-250 can be quiet as .22lr
2 nd- what's the problem with rabbits? I am shooting more rabbits with it than foxes head shots out to 250-300 yards
3rd- have it with a 1-10 twist and you can shoot 40gr all the way to 69gr sierra tmk bullets at any speed you like and then tose 69gr tmk make a big difference at longer ranges (farthest i shoot 600 yards with extreme accuracy)
Again i had no experience with 222 ,nor i am marksman by any means just sharing my experience with 22-250

 

[Sharpie]

Yes you need to be careful, shooting something that fast is dangerous at Bisley.

Its one of those draconian laws of the NRA.

It is actually pretty standard for military ranges. And sensible.

There have to be some rules, as with high muzzle energy.

If you are a butt marker you might rightly be concerned for your safety with say monometal bullets smacking into the backstop behind you, or the target frame just above your head, or hitting the mantle, and potentially bouncing back at you, or fragments showering you from high velocity frangible bullets. or HME rounds.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

It is actually pretty standard for military ranges. And sensible.

There have to be some rules, as with high muzzle energy.

If you are a butt marker you might rightly be concerned for your safety with say monometal bullets smacking into the backstop behind you, or the target frame just above your head, or hitting the mantle, and potentially bouncing back at you, or fragments showering you from high velocity frangible bullets. or HME rounds.

Bad enough being in the butts with FMJ 5.56. More than one bounced off the concrete near my head when on target duty.

 

[jb1]

I have marked a few times at Bisley,and probably stood in the footsteps of my father and his father,. I fail to understand some of the rules regarding velocity, 223 is fine yet something traveling another 300 FPS is not.
i understand there needs to be a line, yet you can send 300 + grain plus bullets the same direction and be safe.

Given the choice to be out in the field with an experienced stalker/vermin shooter or a range shooter i would pick the stalker/vermin shooter any day of the week.

 

[User00035]

Never underestimate the potential for incompetence on a range. I was on butts duty on a club shoot once. I sent the target back up after marking the shot and before I'd had a chance to step back under the mantle the next shot came and hit the 4X2 frame in the holder showering me in wood splinters.
The mind boggles really. It was only 300 yards and the target frame is four feet across but someone couldn't even manage to keep it on the paper..