The 243 may be fine in some localities, but

[scrumbag]

I have never shot a deer and am a newbie to this sort of thing but why would you choose the MINIMUM caliber required to do a job.I work in the building trade and always go that little bit better than the minimum required as it is a better job.
Hope i don't get flamed
dave

Dave you make a perfectly valid point (in my view anyway). The reason there are the calibre debates exist is because there are many ways to skin a cat when it comes to chamberings: Some use light bullets and speed, some use heavy bullets going slower. (Some shoot big bullets at high speed ). The thing is lots of the common chamberings will kill deer quite adequately and it is difficult to pick a line where something works and something doesn't. If it were black and white, there would be no debate. My advice would be try some rifles and chamberings out and pick one which you feel comfortable using as you'll be the one shooting it. Whatever happens, good luck with your choice and enjoy your shooting!

Happy new year boyo!
(I'm originally from the Principality so always nice to meet a fellow Welshman on here!)


Scrummy

 

[Taff]

I have never shot a deer and am a newbie to this sort of thing but why would you choose the MINIMUM caliber required to do a job.I work in the building trade and always go that little bit better than the minimum required as it is a better job.
Hope i don't get flamed
dave

So which saw do you buy, a hand made sankavic or a cheape from b&q, a nice light weight estwing or a cheap heavy b&q hammer. I could shoot pheasants with a 10 bore but chose a 20 bore,Horses for courses

 

[BunnyDoom]

At 180 yds a 100gn .243 round is still doing 2500fps... at 240yds this is still 2357fps - so this is still a pretty solid whack right?...

Could issues be more to do with the weight and type of bullet used, as well as shot placement, rather than the calibre itself? I.e. a well placed 100gn SP/partition might have more effect than a questionably placed 75gn HP?!!!

Not saying its the case as lost my first deer the other day whilst taking a longer shot with a .243... but I reckon I probably just didn't hit the right spot (gutting but these things happen and it's all a learning curve). In hindsight I should have listened to my mate who took me out and gotten a little closer!

When I say lost I mean I hit him, he pronked like a heart shot, then turned and trotted to the wood... No blood trail, nothing found. So maybe I fluffed the shot a few inches, maybe the round was suspect, or maybe just one of those things! - 200yds, prone, 100gn sp, fallow... Shot felt right so I took it.

Limited experience with deer but I'm guessing from what everyone says that with lighter rounds you need to be more accurate with long range shots as they don't have enough steam past 200yds to punch through shoulders if the shot drifts?...

 

[finnbear270]

At 180 yds a 100gn .243 round is still doing 2500fps... at 240yds this is still 2357fps - so this is still a pretty solid whack right?...

Could issues be more to do with the weight and type of bullet used, as well as shot placement, rather than the calibre itself? I.e. a well placed 100gn SP/partition might have more effect than a questionably placed 75gn HP?!!!

Not saying its the case as lost my first deer the other day whilst taking a longer shot with a .243... but I reckon I probably just didn't hit the right spot (gutting but these things happen and it's all a learning curve). In hindsight I should have listened to my mate who took me out and gotten a little closer!

When I say lost I mean I hit him, he pronked like a heart shot, then turned and trotted to the wood... No blood trail, nothing found. So maybe I fluffed the shot a few inches, maybe the round was suspect, or maybe just one of those things! - 200yds, prone, 100gn sp, fallow... Shot felt right so I took it.

Limited experience with deer but I'm guessing from what everyone says that with lighter rounds you need to be more accurate with long range shots as they don't have enough steam past 200yds to punch through shoulders if the shot drifts?...

I wouldn't want to get in the way of a .22LR at 200yds if I was a Bunny, but what you say holds true, just needs scaling up, a .223 soft point weighing 55 grains @ 200yds will cleanly kill a Roe, placed correctly, a .308 round @ 200yds going through the gut will be a long, dog tracking event.

 

[plonker]

So which saw do you buy, a hand made sankavic or a cheape from b&q, a nice light weight estwing or a cheap heavy b&q hammer. I could shoot pheasants with a 10 bore but chose a 20 bore,Horses for courses

I buy the appropriate tool for the job,i would not use a small 12" saw when a 24" saw would do a better job for large wood the same as i would not use a small 20oz estwing hammer if i was chasing out concrete blocks,i would use a lump hammer.You are right it is horses for courses but some tools are better for a certain job.
dave

 

[Heym SR20]

At 180 yds a 100gn .243 round is still doing 2500fps... at 240yds this is still 2357fps - so this is still a pretty solid whack right?...

Could issues be more to do with the weight and type of bullet used, as well as shot placement, rather than the calibre itself? I.e. a well placed 100gn SP/partition might have more effect than a questionably placed 75gn HP?!!!

Not saying its the case as lost my first deer the other day whilst taking a longer shot with a .243... but I reckon I probably just didn't hit the right spot (gutting but these things happen and it's all a learning curve). In hindsight I should have listened to my mate who took me out and gotten a little closer!

When I say lost I mean I hit him, he pronked like a heart shot, then turned and trotted to the wood... No blood trail, nothing found. So maybe I fluffed the shot a few inches, maybe the round was suspect, or maybe just one of those things! - 200yds, prone, 100gn sp, fallow... Shot felt right so I took it.

Limited experience with deer but I'm guessing from what everyone says that with lighter rounds you need to be more accurate with long range shots as they don't have enough steam past 200yds to punch through shoulders if the shot drifts?...

Suggest one of two things happened here. 1) you just missed - probably under the brisket, but if so would suspect to find some hair or 2) you hit him bang on, but no exit so very little in the way of an exit. He probable ran into the wood and lies dead 100 or 200 yds into the wood, but save for either a very experienced tracker or dog will be a real job to find. I had something similar a few years ago with a hind - it jumped to the shot and then ran off with the rest of the herd. Steady shot off bipod 180 or so yards. We watched the herd and nothing within appeared sick or wounded, but we could find no sign of a shot beast and we searched the mountainside long and hard. The hinds had all run into some peat hags that we could nt se into from where we shot and then out the other side. The hags had a few deep slots and am sure it had fallen into one, although the stalker was sure I had missed - still bugs me to this day. And yes it was a 243.

lesson I took is to get as close as you can, then get a bit closer.

 

[Selous]

Surely the take home message is to use the most powerful rifle that you can shoot accurately, if for one person they find a 260 or 6.5 x55 to be too much then a 243 it is and so be it. Most of us hairy chested chaps are built of sterner stuff and can manage a more powerful rifle without issue, particularly now mods are de rigeur. However the acid test still remains bullet placement. If you can place a bullet where you aim 10 out of 10 times with both a 243 and a 30 06 then the best tool for the job is the 30 06 without question because it has capabilities beyond the smaller round.
Lets face it when we go shopping for anything else be it mobile phones, cars screwdrivers or whatever, how many of us go into the shop and ask for something that will barely do the job?

 

[I. Farticus]

lesson I took is to get as close as you can, then get a bit closer.

+1. It's stalking after all, and what we're shooting has a heartbeat - albeit not for long...

 

[User00003]

+1. It's stalking after all, and what we're shooting has a heartbeat - albeit not for long...

stalked along a forest ride today, doe came out at about 50yds, couldn't taken the shot there but walked behind a wee tree in the ride up to about 10 yds, then peeped around the tree at the doe (still feeding), I was going to shoot her, but then I just stood there until she saw me and took off like a lightening bolt, man the legs were spinning! I couldn't help but laugh out loud, it was a great stalk, thoroughly enjoyed getting so close and observing her without the feeling of 'must pull that trigger'.

in any case, I must admit, I had another doe in some longer grass at around 130yds, pretty (ish) clean shot, but sitting with a .243 and hollow points I though 'no', not taking this shot just in case there's a bit of grass I haven't seen - I thought, if I had my 30-06 with 180g partitions I'd pull the trigger without hesitation..although of course, there are no concrete research studies indicating that bullet deflection is not reduced until you go over around 400 grain.

 

[Simjim33]

I saw a fallow doe shot just before Christmas with a .243 with a 105grain sp. Nice good shot at less than 100 yards. Still ran about 100 yards before it dropped. Easy track though.


I don't like runners. I haven't got a dog! Yet!!!

 

[BunnyDoom]

Surely the take home message is to use the most powerful rifle that you can shoot accurately, if for one person they find a 260 or 6.5 x55 to be too much then a 243 it is and so be it. Most of us hairy chested chaps are built of sterner stuff and can manage a more powerful rifle without issue, particularly now mods are de rigeur. However the acid test still remains bullet placement. If you can place a bullet where you aim 10 out of 10 times with both a 243 and a 30 06 then the best tool for the job is the 30 06 without question because it has capabilities beyond the smaller round.
Lets face it when we go shopping for anything else be it mobile phones, cars screwdrivers or whatever, how many of us go into the shop and ask for something that will barely do the job?

Not made of money fella and licensing dept prob won't grant me endless variations - don't think there's anything wrong with the .243... Just the floppy bit attached to the stock

4" circle 100% of the time at 200 on the range... not sure if that means 100% of the time in the field though, and yet to meet anyone who hasn't missed/lost a bunny/fox/deer if they've been hunting any amount of time!

 

[bogtrotter]

The leaflet I had with the law on Deer rifles mentioned minimum 0.240" calibre and minimum 100 grain bullet, minimum muzzle energy of 1700ft lbs at a minimum velocity of 2450 FPS for everything but Roe where a .22 calibre with minimum 50 grain bullet weight and minimum energy of now was it 1000 ft lbs or 1100 ft lbs and again minimum velocity of 2450 FPS.

Due to circumstances beyond my control I have not bothered with the recent changes in the requirements.

The way you wrote it can be read to seem that only 50 rain and 100 grain bullets are legal as you missed the Minimum bit out. same could be said for the velocity and energy which of course anyone could see you got transposed in the .22 calibre.

Yes I see your point I should have said minimum, as for minimum calibre there is actually no mention of calibre in Scottish law, but the requirements of bullet weight, velocity and energy effectively make .240 the minimum calibre, for the same reasons some of heavy bullets in larger calibres fail to meet the requirements in velocity
and energy and are therefore illegal with that particular bullet weight.


Though it can be a bit of a mine field as some which are close may become legal from one manufacturer and not from another , also it may be possible to home load some of the heavy bullets to be legal.


Some calibres and bullet weights that are illegal for all deer in Scotland


.30-30 150gr MV below minimum required


.30 Remington 170gr MV below minimum required


.30-06 220 gr MV below minimum required

.300 Savage 180 gr MV below minimum required

.303 215 gr MV below minimum requirement

.318 Wesley Richards 220 gr MV below minimum required

6.5x54 M/S 160 grain both MV and ME below minimum requirements [ used this rifle and bullet combination quite a bit before it was outlawed, and found it adequate for the job and while IMO it was not a suitable combination for long range shooting it was perfectly OK at normal stalking distances].

 

[BunnyDoom]

Where does the 2450 fps come from? Is this backed up with any science?

 

[Taff]

stalked along a forest ride today, doe came out at about 50yds, couldn't taken the shot there but walked behind a wee tree in the ride up to about 10 yds, then peeped around the tree at the doe (still feeding), I was going to shoot her, but then I just stood there until she saw me and took off like a lightening bolt, man the legs were spinning! I couldn't help but laugh out loud, it was a great stalk, thoroughly enjoyed getting so close and observing her without the feeling of 'must pull that trigger'.

in any case, I must admit, I had another doe in some longer grass at around 130yds, pretty (ish) clean shot, but sitting with a .243 and hollow points I though 'no', not taking this shot just in case there's a bit of grass I haven't seen - I thought, if I had my 30-06 with 180g partitions I'd pull the trigger without hesitation..although of course, there are no concrete research studies indicating that bullet deflection is not reduced until you go over around 400 grain.

Several yrs ago there was a debate about deflection on the original marlin owners forum, and brush guns as in lever action calibres, and there was found to be the same number of deflections at 100yds with heavier bullets as with lighter (150gr), the guy set up a target with light grass or twigs in the way. Can,t remember what the maximum weight was.

 

[Brithunter]

Where does the 2450 fps come from? Is this backed up with any science?

Not that I am aware of. It seems carefully chosen to stop the use of the 303 with it's standard 174 grain load at 2440 fps. Spite comes to mind.

 

[TommmB]

that is ridiculous, im affraid after reading many of your posts this seems to be a trend. as others have said plenty of keepers have shot reds with a .243 for years with no trouble.

 

[User00003]

that is ridiculous, im affraid after reading many of your posts this seems to be a trend. as others have said plenty of keepers have shot reds with a .243 for years with no trouble.

I don't believe I'd go as far as to say ridiculous, I'd say it's a quite well argued comment with experience attached to commentary and some ballistic theory put in too.,,,and before the .223 was banned for red deer I'm sure plenty keepers shot both hinds and stags with no trouble using 55g SP's too - however, the argument is about striking a balance between what is an ethical caliber/bullet combination given certain deer species and distances shot at, and what becomes impractical in terms of weight, recoil, powder usage, etc. I for one have used the .243 plenty on reds, and can only agree with Muir's observations. If I only ever used the .243 I'd probably continue to think it was a perfectly suitable calibre, but having seen what 'other' calibres can do with similar bullet placement, I only take the .243 for reds in need rather than as a first choice.

 

[foxdropper]

Some tosh spouted here lads .
.243 adequate for anything here out to 350 .All that is required is a good operator on the trigger .
There isn’t a legal calibre made that removes the runner action of a deer that’s hit in the heart ,especially if you’ve been spotted beforehand and it’s a herd animal .
Take away the driver error and .243 is enough and more for the US mule deer and white/ black tail deer out to 350 .None of them are bigger than a Devon red and hundreds of them shot yearly at range with the .243 .

 

[Orion]

It’s a more than 7 year old thread!

I’d think a fair proportion of the participants on a subject that always becomes ‘controversial’ when it gets raised on here are long gone from the forum.

 

[Dunwaters]

I’m with Muir on this, 243 just won’t hack it for me either.
If you want to use one that’s fine but I’m not going to help you look for the animal afterwards, ive spent far too much time crawling around in the thickets as it is and a lot of that s down to the 243 and “ good chest shots.”
Bah and Humbug.
243 is minimum legal caliber, the smallest rifle you can use on the bigger 3 deer, that’s not actually an endorsement saying go ahead, it’s saying you can but be careful,a bit like taking a Honda 50 down the motorway, a skilled rider could probably do it safely but would prefer a better tool for the job, the beginner won’t even realise there’s a problem until it’s too late.