The Future of the "Old Victorian Style Stalking Estates"

In fact, if any accusations of being anti Scottish are to be made , it is fairer to aim them at the SNP!

They have wrecked Scottish education and universities, they have caused severe damage to the NHS in Scotland through incompetence, they have ruined the police forces in Scotland, they have saddled Scotland with failing, now publicly owned, industrial operations...Prestwick, Fergusons, Bi-fab, and they seem determined to prevent investment in the rural communities by wrecking one of Scotlands main rural industries.... Their marxist land reform agenda will do nothing apart from giving everybody an equal share of f*** all.

All they are interested in is seeking to create division and discord.

How dare you say the Tories are anti Scottish and in the same breath support those who are bent on doing such damage to me and those around me, mine and their livelihoods and interests.

I'm sorry to be direct but I have run out of patience. Off topic I know but has to be said. That's me finished on the subject.
 
My final word on this topic, and in regards to my original post and nothing to do with the politics that has come after.

I was born on the Lovats Estates, I grew up bouncing from place to place and finally resettled with my family when I was 14 back to near where I was born. I am 40 years of age and lived my whole life in the farming and keepering community, I tried a different path for a very long time, but, whether it be in my blood or whatever, I found myself ass deep in the industry that destroyed my father. For most of my childhood my father was unemployed and sadly he has never recovered. So although my experience in regards to how these changes will effect SOME families is great, I do severely hope that things are different.

Each year the intake of all the Game keeping courses in the UK are filled with youngsters, eager to down the estates tweed that they gleefully represent and each time I think if they know what is coming.

Country sports in general is run by, controlled and dictated to by the actions and the money that comes from people who do not rely on it as their livelihood. Even in this forum and highlighted on the posts of this thread we see this. Stalking would not survive as a sport without it, but, because the word Sport is used as the main drive of the industry that many of us rely on to keep a roof over our heads it is classed as a non essential commodity. This has never been more prevalent than what is today during this pandemic. Country Sports and those who work professionally in it is deemed as non essential work, classed the same as Athletes who rely on sporting events to keep their sponsors. Due to this most of us in the industry do not qualify for any bail out. Unfortunately the downsides are never reiterated to the youngsters that come into the business through these colleges.

IF the industry changes dramatically as I predict, then what re these colleges offering the new blood that comes in?

This week I have had 3 emails from lads who are coming to or are at the end of their training period at their estates, I am sure every one of them has worked their asses off learning the trade but there is NO position for them after their training is over. Each email has asked IF I have any work for them and unfortunately each reply is the same "sorry no". This is not a unique year as I get similar emails, phone calls and messages on social media every year around this time. I wish I could help them but in the end I am not an employer.

It is very easy for those who do not rely on country sports as their livelihood to have an opinion on what is happening and have millions of solutions on how to fix it but when it is happening to you it becomes very difficult. Losing your job and getting another one is not as easy as you think and it is even harder when you work in a niche industry like shooting sports, most change employment while they have a job in the industry for a reason.

I worry for those in the industry, and I worry for myself. At the moment I get no wage, no bail out, I do not qualify for Universal Credit and majority of the work I am doing right now is for free, I am however surviving for the most part, I dread to think what is going on in the lives of those young keepers, under keepers and Estate workers and their families of whom have suffered pay offs due to Covid-19 and it is very easy for those sitting comfortable, either benefiting from furlough or still able to go back to their normal day job, to say "They will be fine another Estate will take them on". I have seen what really happens behind closed doors of an unemployed keeper/farmer workers house and it is never fun.
 
Just to be clear i think that the SNP are a complete and utter waste of space and the Scootidh economy is f......,, That is why every other week I am away in London or Amsterdam. Go to Edinburgh or Glasgow Airport on a Monday or Tuesday morning and its rammed with people commuting to work.

But both the traditional parties on Scotland - labour and the conservative and unionist completely failed in the last election. And they completely failed because they simply didnt get out and mobilise their voters. I live in central Edinburgh in a traditionally Labour seat - Edinburgh North and Leith. only party out electioneering was SNP.

the fact that they are leading despite their clear inadequacies, not least their behaviour behind close doors really shows how inadequate the other parties are.

and i can see how they will take us out of the Union. But seeing as I do see things both North and South i am really not sure I like the way the things are heading either sidecof the border. Tow the party line and you get your nose in the trough. don’t and you are left well behind.

and with this C-19 - where is the questioning from the opposition pushing for answers for incompetent of our governments and highly paid beauraucrats. FFS Westminster should be sitting - you can run it on Zoom!!!!

was on an international finance conference last week with over 1,000 delgates. Putting 600 odd MPs - with their extra £10k each for tech should be a breeze.
 
My final word on this topic, and in regards to my original post and nothing to do with the politics that has come after.

I was born on the Lovats Estates, I grew up bouncing from place to place and finally resettled with my family when I was 14 back to near where I was born. I am 40 years of age and lived my whole life in the farming and keepering community, I tried a different path for a very long time, but, whether it be in my blood or whatever, I found myself ass deep in the industry that destroyed my father. For most of my childhood my father was unemployed and sadly he has never recovered. So although my experience in regards to how these changes will effect SOME families is great, I do severely hope that things are different.

Each year the intake of all the Game keeping courses in the UK are filled with youngsters, eager to down the estates tweed that they gleefully represent and each time I think if they know what is coming.

Country sports in general is run by, controlled and dictated to by the actions and the money that comes from people who do not rely on it as their livelihood. Even in this forum and highlighted on the posts of this thread we see this. Stalking would not survive as a sport without it, but, because the word Sport is used as the main drive of the industry that many of us rely on to keep a roof over our heads it is classed as a non essential commodity. This has never been more prevalent than what is today during this pandemic. Country Sports and those who work professionally in it is deemed as non essential work, classed the same as Athletes who rely on sporting events to keep their sponsors. Due to this most of us in the industry do not qualify for any bail out. Unfortunately the downsides are never reiterated to the youngsters that come into the business through these colleges.

IF the industry changes dramatically as I predict, then what re these colleges offering the new blood that comes in?

This week I have had 3 emails from lads who are coming to or are at the end of their training period at their estates, I am sure every one of them has worked their asses off learning the trade but there is NO position for them after their training is over. Each email has asked IF I have any work for them and unfortunately each reply is the same "sorry no". This is not a unique year as I get similar emails, phone calls and messages on social media every year around this time. I wish I could help them but in the end I am not an employer.

It is very easy for those who do not rely on country sports as their livelihood to have an opinion on what is happening and have millions of solutions on how to fix it but when it is happening to you it becomes very difficult. Losing your job and getting another one is not as easy as you think and it is even harder when you work in a niche industry like shooting sports, most change employment while they have a job in the industry for a reason.

I worry for those in the industry, and I worry for myself. At the moment I get no wage, no bail out, I do not qualify for Universal Credit and majority of the work I am doing right now is for free, I am however surviving for the most part, I dread to think what is going on in the lives of those young keepers, under keepers and Estate workers and their families of whom have suffered pay offs due to Covid-19 and it is very easy for those sitting comfortable, either benefiting from furlough or still able to go back to their normal day job, to say "They will be fine another Estate will take them on". I have seen what really happens behind closed doors of an unemployed keeper/farmer workers house and it is never fun.

The gamekeeping Industry is the same as any other, there are a finite number of jobs. The number of jobs are and will be reduced by the Political policies of the day if it makes it prohibitively expensive to keep them and that is what is happening in the current climate.

There will be trainees who are successful and ones who don’t really enjoy it, or indeed there isn’t a job that suits them or the employer, a bit like someone who trains to be a chef but ends up working in Tesco or a gamekeeper who throws in the towel and gains work in the public sector.

The current Land Reform policy championed by the SNP looks to seek the end of the grouse shooting side of industry by hook or by crook, you can make your own mind up what you think the reasons are for that but unless your blinkered it’s hard to avoid.

Grouse shooting generally requires significantly more outlay than stalking estates and the owners of said estates are happy to spend their own personal wealth knowing that there is a good chance they won’t get a return.

Game shooting will be next, it’s clear from the additional taxes levied and current lack of support regarding Covid-19 in Scotland which appears to be being made in England, the money is there, it is up to devolved administrations how they spend it.

The above scenario would greatly increase the number of applicants for stalking jobs which aren’t there as I do not believe for one minute they would remain employed long term in future ventures on the same ground owned by whoever with the current suggestions for land use.

Stalking is relatively safe meantime as long as reducing deer numbers significantly remains on the horizon, however, if you reduced the numbers to say European or Nordic numbers the opportunities would significantly reduce and the resulted cost would spiral way past the cost that many of the boys you sell syndicate places to could afford - thus immediately making it an upper class or ‘toffs’ pastime - class war box ticked.

A lot of the lads I know are currently lucky as they work on ‘Old Money’ estates or estates where new regimes and investment has been taking place.

The landowners in these cases are taking the hit and accept it as they have other incomes which allows them to ride the rough with the smooth and can already accept they will get no help - is that an ‘inclusive, progressive policy’?

The country as a whole will take decades to recover from the current pandemic and no one really knows what will happen in all walks of life. If one owner/employer on a moderately sized estate is still willing to employ upwards of 6 full time staff in rural areas with no other employment opportunities (which wouldn’t be there if in great numbers if you planted trees or a wind farm either incidentally), are these people a government should seek to punish to suit their rhetoric? Is it acceptable that policies would lead needlessly to increased unemployment leaving the tax payer to pick up the tab for benefits to suit rhetoric?

I don’t know your personal employment circumstances but you have to ask yourself if you aren’t getting anything from your employer and are not able to apply for benefits that is wrong. If however your employer can’t give you anything due to lack of furlough, and, would you be better off in your current employment being south of the border, what does that tell you about the SNP.
 
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Some of us aren't looking for a bail out, nor ever have, but are content to make our own way forward.

By the sweat of your brow shall you eat your bread
 
Applied for a stalkers position on an estate (which I won't name) and got an email back from them saying they won't be interviewing or recruiting for the role now due to the current crisis, bad news for someone.

Very thankful that I had secured a position for the coming season before lockdown which is industry related but not on a traditional sporting estate, similar to my current role.

I think it is common knowledge in the industry that many estates once renowned for their sport have been crippled by decades of poor/mis-management but held together by keepers/stalkers who have gone above and beyond to keep things going, probably more proud of the place than the actual owners who come and go (literally and figuratively).

Young people in the industry need to start thinking outside the box, as many are near enough to being exploited (been there!) through the long hours, low pay and sometimes dangerous work they are being expected to carry out. The skills learned and experience developed through estate work/keepering are highly valued in many industries.

I'd lay most of the blame on irresponsible managers/factors who make poor financial decisions, deciding that it is better to burn through people ('we can get another willing person tomorrow if you are unhappy with the work and want to leave' mentality) instead of investing the time and effort required to build a team/community round the estate.

The owners are probably just as much to blame; as the 15th Lord Lovat stated in his brilliant autobiography 'March Past', that his father instilled in him the sentiment that 'duties of land ownership always come before the privileges' (or something to that affect!).

Ironic twist of fate that the Lovat estates were eventually sold off to pay death taxes.
 
Applied for a stalkers position on an estate (which I won't name) and got an email back from them saying they won't be interviewing or recruiting for the role now due to the current crisis, bad news for someone.

Very thankful that I had secured a position for the coming season before lockdown which is industry related but not on a traditional sporting estate, similar to my current role.

I think it is common knowledge in the industry that many estates once renowned for their sport have been crippled by decades of poor/mis-management but held together by keepers/stalkers who have gone above and beyond to keep things going, probably more proud of the place than the actual owners who come and go (literally and figuratively).

Young people in the industry need to start thinking outside the box, as many are near enough to being exploited (been there!) through the long hours, low pay and sometimes dangerous work they are being expected to carry out. The skills learned and experience developed through estate work/keepering are highly valued in many industries.

I'd lay most of the blame on irresponsible managers/factors who make poor financial decisions, deciding that it is better to burn through people ('we can get another willing person tomorrow if you are unhappy with the work and want to leave' mentality) instead of investing the time and effort required to build a team/community round the estate.

The owners are probably just as much to blame; as the 15th Lord Lovat stated in his brilliant autobiography 'March Past', that his father instilled in him the sentiment that 'duties of land ownership always come before the privileges' (or something to that affect!).

Ironic twist of fate that the Lovat estates were eventually sold off to pay death taxes.

Didn't one of the Lovats get killed by a cape buffalo? Seem to remember a note about it at the pub in Beauly?
 
Didn't one of the Lovats get killed by a cape buffalo? Seem to remember a note about it at the pub in Beauly?

At the Lovat Arms I presume?

Lord Lovat's son is killed on safari

I love Beauly but it makes me sad that it is no longer what it was. Last time I was there a plaque honouring Shimi Lovat in the memorial garden (by the now closed bank) was gone :(

Still take friends and family there to bore them with history though (Lovat Scouts memorial!)
 
At the Lovat Arms I presume?

Lord Lovat's son is killed on safari

I love Beauly but it makes me sad that it is no longer what it was. Last time I was there a plaque honouring Shimi Lovat in the memorial garden (by the now closed bank) was gone :(

Still take friends and family there to bore them with history though (Lovat Scouts memorial!)

That's him! Andrew. Very sad.

I used to sit on a bench in the graveyard at the friary in Beauly to eat my ritual haggis supper. A melancholic but lovely place nonetheless.
 
Applied for a stalkers position on an estate (which I won't name) and got an email back from them saying they won't be interviewing or recruiting for the role now due to the current crisis, bad news for someone.

Very thankful that I had secured a position for the coming season before lockdown which is industry related but not on a traditional sporting estate, similar to my current role.

I think it is common knowledge in the industry that many estates once renowned for their sport have been crippled by decades of poor/mis-management but held together by keepers/stalkers who have gone above and beyond to keep things going, probably more proud of the place than the actual owners who come and go (literally and figuratively).

Young people in the industry need to start thinking outside the box, as many are near enough to being exploited (been there!) through the long hours, low pay and sometimes dangerous work they are being expected to carry out. The skills learned and experience developed through estate work/keepering are highly valued in many industries.

I'd lay most of the blame on irresponsible managers/factors who make poor financial decisions, deciding that it is better to burn through people ('we can get another willing person tomorrow if you are unhappy with the work and want to leave' mentality) instead of investing the time and effort required to build a team/community round the estate.

The owners are probably just as much to blame; as the 15th Lord Lovat stated in his brilliant autobiography 'March Past', that his father instilled in him the sentiment that 'duties of land ownership always come before the privileges' (or something to that affect!).

Ironic twist of fate that the Lovat estates were eventually sold off to pay death taxes.
I agree

I knew the Lovats personally Lady Rose Lovat was ny godmother and a personal friend of my mother and the estates being sold off before its time was the result of my fathers downfall. I was born in Eskdale on the Estate and was baptised there. Lord and Lady Lovat were the kindest most loving people I have ever had the pleasure to meet.
 
I think some of the issues with youngsters trying to get into employment is the fact that they now all go to college where they learn the trade and gain all the required tickets due to H&S and the likes. In the old days you follow a keeper / stalker like an apprenticeship and at the end of it you were either taken on or tried other estates to get in as an keeper, now there are so many youngsters at the various colleges chasing very few positions but colleges and education are businesses now so need to fill the courses with the next hopeful.
sorry off the original post.
 
Sounds like I might have had a similar background to you Tulloch, my father was a keeper and like yours moved around
I also went to several schools four primary and three secondary but unlike you I never found that to be a great
disadvantage.
Dad moved around certainly but that was not the fault of the estates more the fact that he a rolling stone he
would have said that he was only ever on one bad estate.
I have also been in the industry my whole working life and have not encountered many of the negatives that you seem
to have.
As far as your point regarding colleges yes they are churning out so qualified keepers year after year but how many
of them are really cut out to be keepers and also as far as being qualified are they really? No the a college course is
only the start of learning the craft.
As for being no jobs for them that might be a valid point but my grandson did three years at college gaining an HNC
I can't remember how many started the course quite a few dropped out but 22 finished the course gaining a qualification
everyone of them managed to gain a job in the industry unfortunatley they are not all still following that line of work
but that is not really the fault of the estates more a realisation of the reality of a keepers life once the rose tinted specs
came off.
A keepers life is not for everyone and by keepers life, I mean it is a way of life if you look it as just a job then you
probably won't make it.

Yes it is changing but not necessarily for the better.
 
All good points, and then you add in every pair of eyes in the country looking to try and get keepers in trouble, even to the extent of fabrication, aided and abetted by some of our once respected animal welfare and bird organizations, encouraged by a government seemingly bent on finishing off their employment forever, and there isn't much to encourage either keepers into keepering, nor landowners into investing in Scotlands rural economy. Gloomy prospects!
 
Sounds like I might have had a similar background to you Tulloch, my father was a keeper and like yours moved around
I also went to several schools four primary and three secondary but unlike you I never found that to be a great
disadvantage.
Dad moved around certainly but that was not the fault of the estates more the fact that he a rolling stone he
would have said that he was only ever on one bad estate.
I have also been in the industry my whole working life and have not encountered many of the negatives that you seem
to have.
As far as your point regarding colleges yes they are churning out so qualified keepers year after year but how many
of them are really cut out to be keepers and also as far as being qualified are they really? No the a college course is
only the start of learning the craft.
As for being no jobs for them that might be a valid point but my grandson did three years at college gaining an HNC
I can't remember how many started the course quite a few dropped out but 22 finished the course gaining a qualification
everyone of them managed to gain a job in the industry unfortunatley they are not all still following that line of work
but that is not really the fault of the estates more a realisation of the reality of a keepers life once the rose tinted specs
came off.
A keepers life is not for everyone and by keepers life, I mean it is a way of life if you look it as just a job then you
probably won't make it.

Yes it is changing but not necessarily for the better.

It has not always been bad for me either , just so many come into this industry with Rose coloured tints and that will be a problem and the changes are definitely not always for the good of the industry.
 
I agree, "Laird bashing" is top of their agenda. I haven't seen the detail but understand that Nicola has excluded shooting, stalking and some other forms of employment linked to estates, from the various government backed schemes designed to protect jobs that might be made redundant due to COVID.

 
The traditional Victorian estate was a business within itself where the laird had no other (or very little) business interests and the estate was his only source of income. As estates became less profitable they first shrunk in size as land was sold to pay debts until the inevitable realisation hit and the the estate had to be sold.

Many estates are now owned by wealthy business men and if the estate owner is mad about stalking/shooting then I doubt they would lease the stalking rights, if it was bought by someone who has no interests in hunting then they might well let it to a third party to help offset some of the costs and because good estate practices dictate the need for some deer management.

However I think these days most people buying traditional Scottish estates are well aware that the estate will never pay for itself and are therefore not forced to let out the stalking, and leasing a house out is peanuts in the big scheme and comes with more hassle than it is worth.

Some of the traditional estates who still struggle financially may well have laid off people but to say it is widespread doesn’t sound right, they could be easily furloughed and cost the estate nothing.
 
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The traditional Victorian estate was a business within itself where the laird had no other (or very little) business interests and the estate was his only source of income. As estates became less profitable they first shrunk in size as land was sold to pay debts until the inevitable realisation hit and the the estate had to be sold.

Many estates are now owned by wealthy business men and if the estate owner is mad about stalking/shooting then I doubt they would lease the stalking rights, if it was bought by someone who has no interests in hunting then they might well let it to a third party to help offset some of the costs and because good estate practices dictate the need for some deer management.

However I think these days most people buying traditional Scottish estates are well aware that the estate will never pay for itself and are therefore not forced to let out the stalking, and leasing a house out is peanuts in the big scheme and comes with more hassle than it is worth.

Some of the traditional estates who still struggle financially may well have laid off people but to say it is widespread doesn’t sound right, they could be easily furloughed and cost the estate nothing.
The 'traditional Victorian estates' were the highland playthings of the wealthy Victorians who followed and shared in Victoria and Albert's passion for the wild outdoor splendour and associated fieldsports as an escape from the cities and industrial centres of the South in the hot and fetid summer, flocking and migrating North during 'the season'; in truth they were never designed as money-making enterprises3- hc, there is ample evidence of this in the history of almost every sporting lodge North of Perth. 'Monarchs of the Glen' by Duff Hart-Davis (Jonathan Cape) gives a good overview of the development of much of the infrastructure which came on the back of the Victorians' passion for grouse, fish and of course the stag, the clean air and splendour of the highlands as something of an antidote to the 'dark satanic mills' which bankrolled their highland piles.
 
The 'traditional Victorian estates' were the highland playthings of the wealthy Victorians who followed and shared in Victoria and Albert's passion for the wild outdoor splendour and associated fieldsports as an escape from the cities and industrial centres of the South in the hot and fetid summer, flocking and migrating North during 'the season'; in truth they were never designed as money-making enterprises3- hc, there is ample evidence of this in the history of almost every sporting lodge North of Perth. 'Monarchs of the Glen' by Duff Hart-Davis (Jonathan Cape) gives a good overview of the development of much of the infrastructure which came on the back of the Victorians' passion for grouse, fish and of course the stag, the clean air and splendour of the highlands as something of an antidote to the 'dark satanic mills' which bankrolled their highland piles.
Not every Scottish Estate was owned by wealthy English men, many whole estates were let by the lairds to sporting tenants for a season and many retained the sport for themselves. The trend started in the Victorian era is still present today with wealthy outsiders buying their Scottish estates with wealth made elsewhere and retained until interest is lost or fortunes change for the worse, change 'dark satanic mills' to .com billionaires and not a lot has changed.
 
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