Democratising Deer Stalking?

User00040

Well-Known Member
Hi all,

Been thinking about how lucky I have been so far with stalking, I've had great opportunities along with a lot of help from some generous folk.

Unfortunately, stalking is not easy to get into (as we all know!).

I've been interested for a long time, making inquiries whilst I was studying but never got anywhere; admittedly I was very busy and I didn't even know this forum existed!

From an outsider's perspective, deer stalking seemed like a closed circle. The only way to get in was through contacts or money. Admittedly, the latter opens doors everywhere but having neither at the time which made it difficult for me to stay interested.

Having worked in the industry for a little while now and with some who have been stalking for most of their life, I realise its not the sort of thing that everyone wants to get into, but those who do need to have a lot of things lined up in their favour otherwise its no dice.

For example, New Zealand has a Deer Stalkers Association with nationwide chapters and they encourage more people to get involved; it seems to be much easier simply because there is a great deal of public land and enough game to go round. Admittedly, I have no first hand experience there and the UK is unlikely to ever have such opportunities available to the 'common man' (London has nearly twice the population of NZ).

However, I've picked up on an underlying sense that some would rather the doors stay firmly shut, as newcomers simply mean more people in the mix and thus potentially less permission and deer for them. A lot of young people have tried to get into the deer world through college courses, and although some do make it through hard work and determination despite no previous background and experience, its a well know fact that many don't and the allure of stalking is dangled like a carrot before them.

Personally, there is little to no appeal in going on a paid, guided stalk. An 'assured' bag may be attractive to some, especially if they are paying over £500 a day (my car is worth less than that),but I would rather go out with a friend and come home empty handed having enjoyed a good day on the hill or in the woods than be led to a herd of deer and being allowed to pull a trigger, take photos and a trophy home simply because I could afford the entry price.

I'm not against paid stalking and I think its an honest living for the pro stalker (I'd happily take people out),but at the end of the day when you pay a price you expect a product and unfortunately its often the deer that land up footing the bill.

That's enough moaning from me now!
 
Ive just spent 15 minutes typing out an essay response... deleted it all as i cbf with the stupid responses that I will get back. Many of the issues revolve around money and greed.

All you can do is try and pass the good fortune on mate, ive got 2 lads my age (early 20's) into deerstalking and foxing in the past 3 years and ive taken a friends younger brother out foxing and air rifle shooting for pigeon/squirrels... he is now 13 and a keen air rifle shot. Enjoyment of bringing new blood into the sport is payment enough for me

Josh
 
Yes a very sad fact about stalking! As a hard working man like most that don't earn a lot of money and find it better spent elsewhere I can only sit back and dream of being a rich man with all the stalking at my discretion!
 
As a new person to this it’s something I’ve thought a lot. I think our private land is really the cause but it definitely seems a bit of a closed club sometimes, having said that though I’ve been on here not quite a week and had some great responses.
I know a few guys in the states and they are actively trying to encourage others into the sport and have mentor ship programs to help people along.
Josh3105 it sounds like you have a great attitude and well done to you.
Field sports get a bit of a bad wrap in the press with all the antis etc as it is. It would probably be better to open it all up a touch and for things to be more accessible rather than what from the outside can look a bit like an old gents club.
 
As a new person to this it’s something I’ve thought a lot. I think our private land is really the cause but it definitely seems a bit of a closed club sometimes, having said that though I’ve been on here not quite a week and had some great responses.
I know a few guys in the states and they are actively trying to encourage others into the sport and have mentor ship programs to help people along.
Josh3105 it sounds like you have a great attitude and well done to you.
Field sports get a bit of a bad wrap in the press with all the antis etc as it is. It would probably be better to open it all up a touch and for things to be more accessible rather than what from the outside can look a bit like an old gents club.
Welcome to the forum, all moaning aside there are some great guys on here from up and down the country and further afield
 
I think it is a bit of a low key approach in the UK versus a closed group mentality . I can't say I blame the hunting community , they have to deal with a lot of hostility from anti hunting groups and fellow travelers . The vast majority of members here will go out of their way to help if asked , but don't be surprised if they feel you out a bit at first .
It is a different story here . We have hunter training and survival courses available in our junior and senior high schools . I'm involved in a few hunter mentorship programs myself , I get more out of it than the young men and women I take out hunting , great experience . From what I see on here regularly , I'm not alone . Granted , there is a lot of competition for available opportunities there , but with a bit of perseverance I think it's not that difficult . When I was back there September before last , I was given the opportunity to go out a number of times . I've found where ever you go , hunters are pretty much the same type of people , for which I'm glad lol .

AB
 
Whilst i dont want to see stalking as a closed door to new comers I think people need to realise exactly what responsabilty they have when they do start stalking not only from a saftey point of view but from a managment point of view aswell.
Over the last decade the Roe deer around me have taken a total kicking from all these so called "stalkers" who buy themselves a rifle with no prior knowledge of shooting or the countryside and embark on a indiscriminate killing spree under the smoke screen of a dsc1 and some concocted rubbish about deer being over populated causing habitat damage and rtc's. Then after about 3 years give or take theve killed just about every deer on there ground get board sell there guns and move onto there next whim.
Now I understand not every new stalker is like this but you can understand why some people do become a little gaurded over what they have and do.
 
To be honest Ive never found ground all that hard to come by ..... I think a big problem is a lot of new comers immediately get pushed toward the syndicate road and I’ll never understand why ?? Lots of private land out there not being shot
 
When I started I knew nobody in the stalking world, mind it was good few years back now. At that time I personally looked upon it as a rich mans sport and the elite side of field sports.
In my opinion stalking has moved on a great deal since those days, and the only way I achieved to get where I am today is by helping out where I could, getting to know people and winning their trust. The main reason why stalking is becoming harder to get into now is the huge pressure from people wanting to undertake it as a hobby, and the availability of ground to stalk on.

The UK has a huge population for the size of the country, land to stalk over is now viewed as an income for farmers and estates, and land agents are very good at placing huge sums of money on stalking rights. There is plenty of deer to go round, but many areas they are found on are too small to shoot, limited access, people like to see them and don't want them culled, so on and so forth.

Paying for a stalk with any pro stalker is not necessarily going to get you a deer grassed at the end of the day. Unless you are on a fenced area, and even then if its been bad weather and bad luck you may not achieve a cull beast. What you may find is that you can build a relationship with this person who could potentially put you on the right road.
I have a few clients who are now very firm friends, 3 have become guides for me and help with the business. One other has recently moved on from me and has just secured a job on a deer farm, with a house. This was through people I know and his stalking and managing Red Deer in Scotland.

It is hard to get into the sport, but so are some other pastimes and sports. One would hope that if you apply yourself (no disrespect intended) that some of the members on here may offer you a helping hand. Many have achieved their stalking through people on this site. In general we are a suspicious lot, but that is only through a few bad apples that try to infiltrate your stalking and take it off you, or cause issues. But in general you will find help in the stalking community if you look hard enough.

By all means PM me and I will help where I can, if needs be and you need a chance to get out let me know and I will see if I can fit you in for a free outing later in the winter.


Good luck and my best wishes
 
It takes time it’s like if you’ve had the hardship of finding ground then so should the newcomers .
sadly from some of the comments I see on here and other social media stalking like all Fieldsports attracts its share of numptys and killing deer is like pigeon shooting or rabbiting- the numbers game !
newbies need to do the hard miles it is a passage to the greater things an apprenticeship , I had a great mentor and will pass my good luck on when such a newbie who’s proved himself finds me there are a few candidates helping me on the shoot as we speak
No such thing as a free dinner but it don’t have to be paid in cash I hate it spoils things
Just my op
Norma
 
As a new person to this it’s something I’ve thought a lot. I think our private land is really the cause but it definitely seems a bit of a closed club sometimes, having said that though I’ve been on here not quite a week and had some great responses.
I know a few guys in the states and they are actively trying to encourage others into the sport and have mentor ship programs to help people along.
Josh3105 it sounds like you have a great attitude and well done to you.
Field sports get a bit of a bad wrap in the press with all the antis etc as it is. It would probably be better to open it all up a touch and for things to be more accessible rather than what from the outside can look a bit like an old gents club.

You may wish then to consider the 'availability' of the largest owned tract of land in the country, i.e. The National Forest Estate? With something like 2million acres under their care on behalf of the tax paying public who underwrite the whole, it is currently overseen by fifty employed rangers, and a mix of 'permission' paying people (the 'rich' mentioned in the scenario) who pick up the less favoured and/or outlying blocks, and contractor interests, whom we pay to shoot deer on a 'per head' payment basis.

We seem to be in the only country in the Western world where local interested parties are generally unable to gain access to 'State/Govt land' despite paying for it, and the powers in control (I hesitate to style them civil servants) have contrived to make it quite expensive, let alone somewhat 'less than straightforward' for outside interests to gain access to a generally taxpayer-funded resource of the type you seek. You can pay for it, and all that goes on within, but in terms of 'sporting' participation? That is more or less not an option.
 
There are many good points here. There are huge differences between the UK and US and good points to be taken from both. We are very lucky in that all year round we can pick up our rifle and go stalking. Not so in the US as the seasons are much tighter.
the US also promote hunting for food as to many it’s a way of filling the freezer. This is limited in a tag system which is tightly controlled. I would wager most of our deer are shot for financial gain through game dealers. This does lead to greed and also over shooting.
I know of a syndicate whose cull plan is “shoot anything in season”. This is in my opinion not the way to behave but when we have a system where the only control is the person with their finger on the trigger it is what happens.
I have long wondered about a Tag system in the UK where people apply annually for a certain number of animals to cull but with our land laws this couldn’t work. The animals, although overall are managed by NE, the rights are owned by the landowner. What this means is that even if you have stalking there is nothing to stop unscrupulous people coming in and offering to pay to shoot over this land. This forum is full of stories to support that.
So long as money is involved then greed plays a part both in the landowner and also in the stalker and we will not have an even playing field.
This country has a huge divide between the ‘have and the have nots’ stalking is no different.

BE
 
I am not entirely sure that 'greed' can be applied so generally to landowners. It is entirely reasonable for landowners and farmers particularly to gain as much income as they can from as many sources at they can .... and many rightly view stalking and venison income as valuable to them.
Why do you think its greed as opposed to someone trying to make an honest income?
 
Interesting thread.

I'm one of those new guys who wants to get into stalking, I have been shooting over 300 acres of arable and beef land for the last three years, using rimfire (.17 hmr) and keeping the rabbit populations under control. The landowner is delighted with my success.

But I want to take my hunting to another level, and stalking gives that. I have practiced stalking roe on my permission, (not taking the shot of course) but approaching, looking for signs of couching and locating slots etc,...I watch a lot of youtube on the subject, and read a lot on this forum.

I want to put in for a variation for a .243 but my local force requires a mentor, these are not easy to find. The other route is a DSC1 of course but then the cost can be a consideration.
Going back to the mentor, you have to find someone trust worthy, someone who will supervise and advice. Not easy.
One guy I asked, said he would, but it takes two years to get signed off, but the FEO said that two or three days stalking is often enough to get signed off, so I never went any further with it, as I felt this guy had his own agenda.

I have been on a paid stalk (with a member on here) and really enjoyed the day even though I never got to shoot a deer. Just listening to the pro stalker's tips and advice was invaluable. I want to do this, so I will keep pushing.
 
There are many good points here. There are huge differences between the UK and US and good points to be taken from both. We are very lucky in that all year round we can pick up our rifle and go stalking. Not so in the US as the seasons are much tighter.
the US also promote hunting for food as to many it’s a way of filling the freezer. This is limited in a tag system which is tightly controlled. I would wager most of our deer are shot for financial gain through game dealers. This does lead to greed and also over shooting.
I know of a syndicate whose cull plan is “shoot anything in season”. This is in my opinion not the way to behave but when we have a system where the only control is the person with their finger on the trigger it is what happens.
I have long wondered about a Tag system in the UK where people apply annually for a certain number of animals to cull but with our land laws this couldn’t work. The animals, although overall are managed by NE, the rights are owned by the landowner. What this means is that even if you have stalking there is nothing to stop unscrupulous people coming in and offering to pay to shoot over this land. This forum is full of stories to support that.
So long as money is involved then greed plays a part both in the landowner and also in the stalker and we will not have an even playing field.
This country has a huge divide between the ‘have and the have nots’ stalking is no different.

BE

I agree, but in my opinion a lot of the differences we see between countries (or even states in the US) come from the 'culture' that is prevalent among those who have influence at the time.

Not sure about other areas of the UK but in Scotland Red deer seem to have gone from a national symbol to scourge (if you want to believe some outlets!). From the estimates that I have seen, deer culling figures in ever deer management group has either remained relatively constant or increased every year (with mortality adjustments) over the past two decades, yet we are being told that deer numbers are as high as ever and even the most fertile grounds need to aim for X number of deer per square KM and no more or else? See here for a generalised figure

In some areas the term 'Deer Management' has become a euphemism for extermination. Trees are important for the Scottish economy but the balance which is advocated in all other areas seems to be absent once deer enter the equation. If you talk to the old timers in the Highlands they are all happy to tell you that the concept of 'deer management' through night shooting etc. is nothing new, except it was called poaching back in the day 😉

Whilst some will say the Americans are too brash about their hunting culture, I say good for them. The likes of Packham would not get very far over there, even in California.
 
When I started I knew nobody in the stalking world, mind it was good few years back now. At that time I personally looked upon it as a rich mans sport and the elite side of field sports.
In my opinion stalking has moved on a great deal since those days, and the only way I achieved to get where I am today is by helping out where I could, getting to know people and winning their trust. The main reason why stalking is becoming harder to get into now is the huge pressure from people wanting to undertake it as a hobby, and the availability of ground to stalk on.

The UK has a huge population for the size of the country, land to stalk over is now viewed as an income for farmers and estates, and land agents are very good at placing huge sums of money on stalking rights. There is plenty of deer to go round, but many areas they are found on are too small to shoot, limited access, people like to see them and don't want them culled, so on and so forth.

Paying for a stalk with any pro stalker is not necessarily going to get you a deer grassed at the end of the day. Unless you are on a fenced area, and even then if its been bad weather and bad luck you may not achieve a cull beast. What you may find is that you can build a relationship with this person who could potentially put you on the right road.
I have a few clients who are now very firm friends, 3 have become guides for me and help with the business. One other has recently moved on from me and has just secured a job on a deer farm, with a house. This was through people I know and his stalking and managing Red Deer in Scotland.

It is hard to get into the sport, but so are some other pastimes and sports. One would hope that if you apply yourself (no disrespect intended) that some of the members on here may offer you a helping hand. Many have achieved their stalking through people on this site. In general we are a suspicious lot, but that is only through a few bad apples that try to infiltrate your stalking and take it off you, or cause issues. But in general you will find help in the stalking community if you look hard enough.

By all means PM me and I will help where I can, if needs be and you need a chance to get out let me know and I will see if I can fit you in for a free outing later in the winter.


Good luck and my best wishes
thanks for a super informative reply sikamalc, I get it’s going to be a tricky one and with all the anti pressure it’s obvious why people are a bit closed up about it.
I’ve a bit of a plan how I want to achieve my goals and hopefully I can make some good contacts on here. When all this COVID19 stuff ends I’m going to join my local range and I’m hopping I can find somebody to have a couple of day out with and gain some experience, not particularly to shoot just to be out and learn the ropes abit. More than willing to help out with people and or pay a bit for the opportunity.
For know with the current situation I just want to soak up as much info as I can.
Thanks again.
 
I’ve found it incredibly difficult to get into the sport, and I still am.
I joined here circa 2 years ago after passing my DSC1 and it took me almost 9 months to even get out with my rifle which was from a very kind offer from someone on here.
3 months later I by pure fortune joined a syndicate 30mins from work which at the time I could also afford. (I’ve since left said syndicate due to moving jobs). Whilst a member of the syndicate I managed to shoot 2 Roe Buck in around 12 outings, the last being June time last year.

I dream of finding a local permission and have recently started a letter campaign to my local farms (in this climate I can’t just pop round) and hope I find something, otherwise it will be a while until I get out again, any what I have learnt will be forgotten even further. I’m not against paying to stalk, however I can only afford 1 or 2 a year, or can only justify a syndicate close by, as I work away from home anyway so feel I cannot spend what little time I do have at home ignoring the other half.
 
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They were a tourism attractor of great importance to the town of Braemar, for example, that is of course before the NTS decided they had to go.

They came top in a public opinion poll as to the most iconic species of wildlife in Scotland; the Nationalist Executive want them all killed. One man's meat...
 
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