Democratising Deer Stalking?

For me stalking was a natural progression , I started with air guns and shotguns then moving up to rim fire and centre fire. I’m very fortunate that one of my best friends has two farms with Roe, muntjac and very elusive fallow. Having said that my deer stalking is limited to this ground and a couple of other farms, I will be looking to go on paid stalks in the future to meet new people and to go over new ground. I won’t be paying just to shoot a deer and certainly wouldn’t be disappointed if I didn’t shoot one. It’s not about pulling the trigger for me, quite a few times now Ive had deer in front of me and not pulled the trigger for one reason or another.

I love the stalk, getting up at dawn or sitting out at dusk, seeing new beautiful places, witnessing wildlife etc. Also I would hope to gain more knowledge having a paid stalk with a respected professional. Also the hills of Scotland are a bit different to Essex!
 
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I agree, but in my opinion a lot of the differences we see between countries (or even states in the US) come from the 'culture' that is prevalent among those who have influence at the time.

Not sure about other areas of the UK but in Scotland Red deer seem to have gone from a national symbol to scourge (if you want to believe some outlets!). From the estimates that I have seen, deer culling figures in ever deer management group has either remained relatively constant or increased every year (with mortality adjustments) over the past two decades, yet we are being told that deer numbers are as high as ever and even the most fertile grounds need to aim for X number of deer per square KM and no more or else? See here for a generalised figure

In some areas the term 'Deer Management' has become a euphemism for extermination. Trees are important for the Scottish economy but the balance which is advocated in all other areas seems to be absent once deer enter the equation. If you talk to the old timers in the Highlands they are all happy to tell you that the concept of 'deer management' through night shooting etc. is nothing new, except it was called poaching back in the day 😉

Whilst some will say the Americans are too brash about their hunting culture, I say good for them. The likes of Packham would not get very far over there, even in California.

The Scottish red deer's fall from grace saddens me greatly. It has gone from being on a shortbread tin to being on a dartboard almost overnight.

The big problem for the deer in Scotland is that it symbolises success, and positivity, and affluence, and old money, and leisure, and - to some extremists - Englishness.

None of these is compatible with an envy-based political philosophy which - despite leading a country which brought 'The Wealth of Nations' to the world - is pursuing a playbook that might as well be entitled 'In Pursuit of Poverty'. The red deer is to the SNP what the Afrikaans language is to the EFF.

Ordinary, sensible Scottish people (which is most of them) really need to get a grip and take your country back from these morons before they destroy it completely.

On the subject of democratising deerstalking, at some point, (as @Freeforester keeps agitating for) FLS needs to at least enter into a debate about using the public's land differently. 'It wouldn't work here: America is different' is not a sufficiently defensible view.

Kind regards,

Carl
 
Stalking shouldn't be about providing recreation or making money, it should be first and foremost about controlling the wild deer population effectively and sustainably ahead of all other considerations. But that objective has slipped a very long way down the list, if it hasn't disappeared altogether. The whole thing is a mess.
 
In my personal experience, patience, good nature, staying in touch and helping out goes a long way and if you are persistent enough, you will get into deer stalking eventually. It took me about 4 years from someone who knew noone to being part of gun clubs, to helping out with work parties to making friends to going out on special invites to doing my DSC1 to paid stalks and still working towards getting my permissions, hopefully in the near future. I have been on stalks which resulted in no deer but it was the experience of finding and tracking a wild animal in the wild that I enjoyed with the hope of putting some meat in the freezer if I get lucky.

I know of people who just wants to go for a weekend or two, shoot a stag and get it mounted on their wall, which is fine but its a lot different to someone who does it as a passion. All I could say is to be patient and on SD we have a lot of good people who are happy to help out, within their limitations. All the best.
 
Stalking shouldn't be about providing recreation or making money, it should be first and foremost about controlling the wild deer population effectively and sustainably ahead of all other considerations. But that objective has slipped a very long way down the list, if it hasn't disappeared altogether. The whole thing is a mess.
Unfortunately, without income from fieldsports, many estates would be unsustainable. They'd be covered in Sitka and windmills before you could say 'Werritty'.
 
There are many good points here. There are huge differences between the UK and US and good points to be taken from both. We are very lucky in that all year round we can pick up our rifle and go stalking. Not so in the US as the seasons are much tighter.
the US also promote hunting for food as to many it’s a way of filling the freezer. This is limited in a tag system which is tightly controlled. I would wager most of our deer are shot for financial gain through game dealers. This does lead to greed and also over shooting.
I know of a syndicate whose cull plan is “shoot anything in season”. This is in my opinion not the way to behave but when we have a system where the only control is the person with their finger on the trigger it is what happens.
I have long wondered about a Tag system in the UK where people apply annually for a certain number of animals to cull but with our land laws this couldn’t work. The animals, although overall are managed by NE, the rights are owned by the landowner. What this means is that even if you have stalking there is nothing to stop unscrupulous people coming in and offering to pay to shoot over this land. This forum is full of stories to support that.
So long as money is involved then greed plays a part both in the landowner and also in the stalker and we will not have an even playing field.
This country has a huge divide between the ‘have and the have nots’ stalking is no different.

BE
I lost my bit of ground the season before last to a paying syndicate up till then I had some good fallow shooting only a small bit of ground 52 acres but a large head of fallow coming and going with a few muntjac about, i look at it as a glass half full and not empty and happy that I cut my teeth there some good memories, the problem I think was I fell foul to Chris packhams spring watch and BBC who broadcast about all the deer over the manor and coming into contact with people on the housing estates on Harold hill, my old bit of ground a Nat whisker away from where the epping chef supposedly poaching deer, which didn't do me any favours at the time as a lot of stalkers syndicates went knocking on landowners doors waving money at them
 
Unfortunately, without income from fieldsports, many estates would be unsustainable. They'd be covered in Sitka and windmills before you could say 'Werritty'.
Yes, but those estates reley on people paying for the privilege of going stalking with a stalker. Cheapening and making stalking more accessible to anyone who owns a rifle won’t be helping those estates
 
If you democratise deer stalking, each person in England would get stalking over half an acre. That's why some people consider it an undesirable goal. The problem is not lack of access but enormous overpopulation.
 
I’ve found it incredibly difficult to get into the sport, and I still am.
I joined here circa 2 years ago after passing my DSC1 and it took me almost 9 months to even get out with my rifle which was from a very kind offer from someone on here.
3 months later I by pure fortune joined a syndicate 30mins from work which at the time I could also afford. (I’ve since left said syndicate due to moving jobs). Whilst a member of the syndicate I managed to shoot 2 Roe Buck in around 12 outings, the last being June time last year.

I dream of finding a local permission and have recently started a letter campaign to my local farms (in this climate I can’t just pop round) and hope I find something, otherwise it will be a while until I get out again, any what I have learnt will be forgotten even further. I’m not against paying to stalk, however I can only afford 1 or 2 a year, or can only justify a syndicate close by, as I work away from home anyway so feel I cannot spend what little time I do have at home ignoring the other half.
You make a some interesting comments. I too work away from home for weeks at a time leaving my wife and two kids at home. When im home its not easy for me to get out on my own for any reason let alone shooting!
 
The Scottish red deer's fall from grace saddens me greatly. It has gone from being on a shortbread tin to being on a dartboard almost overnight.

The big problem for the deer in Scotland is that it symbolises success, and positivity, and affluence, and old money, and leisure, and - to some extremists - Englishness.

None of these is compatible with an envy-based political philosophy which - despite leading a country which brought 'The Wealth of Nations' to the world - is pursuing a playbook that might as well be entitled 'In Pursuit of Poverty'. The red deer is to the SNP what the Afrikaans language is to the EFF.

Ordinary, sensible Scottish people (which is most of them) really need to get a grip and take your country back from these morons before they destroy it completely.

On the subject of democratising deerstalking, at some point, (as @Freeforester keeps agitating for) FLS needs to at least enter into a debate about using the public's land differently. 'It wouldn't work here: America is different' is not a sufficiently defensible view.

Kind regards,

Carl

This is probably the must concise and succinct summation of the plight of the Red Deer in Scotland.

That ScotGov are willing, and eager, to massacre native fauna and devastate their number simply to reinforce SNP political ideology is a travesty of the highest order. It is little better than criminal.
 
Stalking is by no means unique within shooting field sports in that people wishing to get involved for the first time can have problems with access to shooting ground, unless they have deep pockets!
 
If you democratise deer stalking, each person in England would get stalking over half an acre. That's why some people consider it an undesirable goal. The problem is not lack of access but enormous overpopulation.


Precisely. Shooting, as a sector and an industry, has I'm afraid like the rest of society, come to treat the countryside as a public amenity for recreation rather than a managed ecosystem which we share with wildlife and from which we source our food. What gets shot, where, by whom and in what numbers is determined by arbitrary boundaries drawn on a map and the whim of landowners granting permission or leasing pockets of land to people who either use their ground as an occasional personal larder or shoot whatever will help them recoup the cost of their lease. It is not determined by deer species, territories and population numbers.
Deer don't ask permission. They don't read maps or respect boundaries and shooting whichever beast will yield the most cash to the leaseholder the moment it steps onto his few square feet of ground isn't necessarily the best way to manage a more widespread population. Very often it's the opposite.

Carving up the countryside into ever smaller pieces to accommodate the endless stream of stalking hopefuls coming off the DMQ training organisation's conveyor belt and jostling to secure their little bit of territory as landowners pocket a bit of easy cash doesn't translate into deer management. It translates into an oversubscribed market for a finite resource and wildlife conservation and stewardship goes out the window.
 
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Yes, but those estates reley on people paying for the privilege of going stalking with a stalker. Cheapening and making stalking more accessible to anyone who owns a rifle won’t be helping those estates

They are an entirely different market. The bloke who shoots a few roe on a neighbouring farm in return for a couple of haunches of venison and a bottle at Christmas is a very different customer from the fella who takes a week at Atholl every year. I think we need to cater for both of them, insofar as that is consistent with the usual requirements of safety, welfare, conservation, etc.

Incidentally, I am aware of the irony in me acting all 'man of the people' when I charge rich men tens of thousands of dollars to come and hunt elephants at my place in Mozambique, so I will forgive you for rolling your eyes at me, @minikeeper ... :p
 
They are an entirely different market. The bloke who shoots a few roe on a neighbouring farm in return for a couple of haunches of venison and a bottle at Christmas is a very different customer from the fella who takes a week at Atholl every year. I think we need to cater for both of them, insofar as that is consistent with the usual requirements of safety, welfare, conservation, etc.

Incidentally, I am aware of the irony in me acting all 'man of the people' when I charge rich men tens of thousands of dollars to come and hunt elephants at my place in Mozambique, so I will forgive you for rolling your eyes at me, @minikeeper ... :p
I just can’t see any problem with the way things are at the moment. Everyone that I know who wants to shoot deer and has a good work ethic have as many deer to go at as they could possibly want. On the flip side, everyone who I know who are struggling to get permissions are in my eyes un capable of doing a decent job anyway. The difficult process of accessing stalking as very valuable in my eyes, It filters out some of the chaff.
 
One of the problems I see are people that want overnight success and I’m afraid the certs do nothing to help with this respect .Growing up doing all things associated with field sports ,it was just a natural progression from small game ,fox to deer and learning more than any 3 day course can ever teach .Ive mentored 5 guys now ,all but one successfully having their certs opened to deer through the scheme but the last person was a favour to a mate ,he knew nothing and didn’t want to learn ,had done the course and thought that was it ,Gloucester feo wanted him mentored as well .Very dangerous with a gun ,constantly taking it off him and unloading when we we’re out due to him swinging the thing about .I recommended he didn’t have an fac let alone a deer calibre .
If instant stalking is your goal forget it but if you are willing to start from the basics and learn the hard way you have my respect .
Anything is possible with hard work ,being respectful and having a love of everything outdoors .
My own personal hang up is the lads that only see the deer when they are out and only as targets in the main ,missing everything else that goes on in the countryside .
Perhaps I’m just older and maybe killing was important when I was younger but unless deer are to be seriously culled ,there’s a fine line between seeing and watching and wanting to own it .
 
I just can’t see any problem with the way things are at the moment. Everyone that I know who wants to shoot deer and has a good work ethic have as many deer to go at as they could possibly want. On the flip side, everyone who I know who are struggling to get permissions are in my eyes un capable of doing a decent job anyway. The difficult process of accessing stalking as very valuable in my eyes, It filters out some of the chaff.

I understand where you are coming from, but try and put yourself in someone else's shoes with this example:

Person X has a permission on a large estate, containing a sizeable fallow herd which they have managed well for near enough a decade and although they are not the landowner, all seems well. However, a sudden and unfortunate death means that said land is sold, and the buyer reviews all shooting/stalking permissions. Person X is contacted by the new landowners holding company, who has had an offer from a large stalking syndicate to take over, but they are generous and thoughtful, and to show their appreciation of the work that Person X has put in over the years they are willing to offer a renewal of the stalking lease at a sum of £XX,XXX per annum.

Person X used to cover their own expenses (time, fuel, high-seats, larder, ammo etc) through venison sales and the occasional paid stalk, and the former landowner was happy with the arrangement. The new offer is well beyond the reach of Person X, so he has to give up. However, not all is lost as he still has some small bits of ground to manage, a farm on rolling hills with ample Roe.

Tragedy befalls Person X again, as the farmland has being seeing poor returns over the past decade despite consistent harvests and rising costs mean that an offer from an energy company to build a windfarm is reluctantly accepted by the farmer. Once again Peron X's permission comes under review, and it is decided that on health and safety grounds their permission is going to be suspended whilst the windfarms are being built. However, a large gamebird shoot takes an interest in the land, and an agreement is reached with the energy company and once construction ends they will get all shooting rights.

To heighten the pressure, all this coincides with FAC renewal time and with no permissions Person X is now very worried. Having mentored and witnessed many a novice, they have now gone from someone who has 'a good work ethic have as many deer to go at as they could possibly want.' To 'struggling to get permissions' and hence 'are in my eyes un capable of doing a decent job anyway.'

It seems that developments outside of Person X's control have helped to 'filter out some of the chaff'.

I'm not trying to twist your post @minikeeper , and I appreciate your position, but the above example is based on the experiences of two stalkers who I have met, talked and stalked with, so they are very real possibilities. Both have had to make large adjustments to their lives which seems like a kick in the teeth when they have been providing a service which they did not exploit to make large profits, simply because it is their passion.

Food for thought, cheers.
 
Some interesting comments on here.
Thinking about the wider question of getting more people interested and involved in our sport...which is ultimately the only way it will survive. Here are a few of my observations that by no means apply to all but seem to come up quite regularly...

Mr A. asks about an aspect of deer management or carcass prep
Mr B. offers an answer (sometimes quite flippant) and points Mr A towards doing the DSC1...various other people pile in with a variety of views
Mr A. is confused so starts a new thread asking about DSC1
Various people pile in to say its a good idea....various other people pile in to say it a crock and nothing more than a money spinner and that it doesn't mean you are a stalker just because you do the DSC1...everything gets a bit heated as more and more people get involved..Mr A tactically withdraws from the thread
Mr A is now even more confused and wonders what he did wrong?...was his question stupid?..who is right and who is wrong?
Now there is a 50/50 chance of Mr A just moving on to another forum (or none) or him having another go at getting a helpful answer to his question

Then we have threads questioning why people feel deer stalking is a closed shop and hard to break in to?

Now I'm not saying this happens every time or that we all or we always do this but it happens a lot on many topics e.g. Carcass/meat handling, bullets vs heads , DSC1/DSC2, Reloading/case prep and so on.
So is it any wonder why not everyone feels they can be part of our discussions and feel its a bit of a closed shop. There are also many great and informative discussions and they are the backbone of the forum and help many people but that shouldn't make us forget that every time we post there could be someone reading the thread who doesn't know the right answer but wants to get involved in deer stalking...Are we pulling them in or pushing them away?

Apologies for going a bit off topic but sometimes it is good to look in the mirror and asking yourself "Do I do all that I can to support my sport, both in real life and in digital life?"

Anyway, that my twopence and I'm sure other will have a different view.
 
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