DSC 1 - how does it work?

[Alantoo]

With the land and the experience you have just apply for a variation, that is all you need to apply for you rifle.

The DSC1 is a great opportunity to get a concentrated wodge of knowledge and distilled experience about stalking; both directly about deer and the wider aspects of dealing with the carcass both practically and legally. It is a great asset personally to you as a starting out stalker.

In an identical position as you...I wanted to learn about deer and did my DSC1 before I applied for a variation to my FAC and bought my own centre fire rifle. I also did just as you, and went on paid stalks and spent time quizzing friends who were stalkers.

DSC1 was a useful and enjoyable part of my journey and I did not think of it in terms of opening any doors at all...still don't.

Alan

 

[DavyG]

In that case they should be challenged as their behaviour is unlawful

I had this conversation with my FEO, whom I know very well. They agreed, but suggested (off the record) that an application without one might always remain at the bottom of the pile.
DG

 

[springbok787]

Yes I have permission to shoot, (500 acres) the landowner is keen I manage the deer (Roe) on his land and the land is cleared for calibres larger than the .243 I would request.
In addition, I would be doing paid stalks in the future.

Job done then.

 

[Musketeer]

Option B - you say in your opening sentence that "I really want to get into deer stalking ". If that's really your goal then I'd suggest you focus on that. There are plenty of rifles for sale because someone was 100% convinced they wanted to get into deer stalking but then lost the enthusiasm or moved onto something else. In your case you say that you have already been on a paid stalk and accompanied someone else for the experience, which is a great start and shows real commitment, but as well as commitment what many FEO's will want to see is some knowledge and experience from the applicant when it comes to both firearms and the quarry you intend to pursue.

To get this knowledge you have another choice. You can carry on going out (either paid or with a mate) until you have built up a bit of a portfolio of experience, and then use that (plus evidence, perhaps, of some future paid stalks) when you submit your request. That's how I got my FAC. It's not cheap, though, unless you can find someone who will do it for mates rates or for nothing. It sounds from your post like you've already been down that path.

I have been using rimfire (.17 hmr) since Nov 2018, which is not a long time, but I go out at least twice a week and often three times. I thought that my military training might have helped, I have completed Skill at Arms Instructor and Range Conducting Officer) but the FEO said they would not take this into account, although I felt it showed a good understanding of gun safety.
The quarry point, clearly needs to be increased.

 

[Roestalker39]

I had this conversation with my FEO, whom I know very well. They agreed, but suggested (off the record) that an application without one might always remain at the bottom of the pile.
DG

How very fair

 

[TomT3]

Doing it to obtain your deer legal rifle shouldn’t be necessary, and as stated is technically against the law. I undertook DSC1 because I have a general interest, and wanted to expand my knowledge of deer. I like learning especially about my hobbies. I found it very interesting and as stated enjoyed a weekend with like minded people from different walks of life. I’d recommend it-others wouldn’t. Some people come out of it thinking they are experts (which is what ****es some blokes off including myself and rightly so ) some like my self come out a better stalker with knowledge gained that I previously didn’t have. I don’t just mean DSC curriculum knowledge I mean real world knowledge from other stalkers and the lecturers. If your going to do it, do because you want to. If you think it’l help you get your rifle do it. If you think it won’t -don’t! Don’t let people put you off either way the decision is ultimately yours.

 

[willie_gunn]

I though the OP had already asked for a .243 - and been refused - when these conditions were already in place (land, permission to shoot, past stalks, etc)?

I guess following the advice of a few anonymous people on a website and submitting the request again "because they told me I am good to go" is one approach, but then I also thought the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Why not just give the FEO a call and have a chat with him? Explain your situation and talk through the options. Unlike anyone here, your FEO has a direct influence over whether or not you get approval. Maybe he isn't aware of, or doesn't appreciate, all the circumstances but trying to force him into granting you approval by coming over like some barrack-room lawyer really isn't going to help.

 

[Roestalker39]

I though the OP had already asked for a .243 - and been refused - when these conditions were already in place (land, permission to shoot, past stalks, etc)?

I guess following the advice of a few anonymous people on a website and submitting the request again "because they told me I am good to go" is one approach, but then I also thought the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Why not just give the FEO a call and have a chat with him? Explain your situation and talk through the options. Unlike anyone here, your FEO has a direct influence over whether or not you get approval. Maybe he isn't aware of, or doesn't appreciate, all the circumstances but trying to force him into granting you approval by coming over like some barrack-room lawyer really isn't going to help.

I don’t think he’s been refused at all I gather he hasn’t applied yet ?
admittedly being overly forceful doesn’t help but then again constant capitulation doesn’t either , especially for us as a shooting community , as has been shown a lot lately ...

 

[TomDeer]

Whilst there are the DSC1 doubters, I have to say I personally found it really worthwhile in terms of what was learnt and reinforced.

Is a DSC1 essential? Probably not but it would have taken me a long time to learn it all through experience. Does it teach you everything you need to know? Of course it doesn't but it did provide me with a decent basic knowledge and understanding about deer and stalking and the other factors around it. It also made me look at things from a perspective other than my own solitary stalker bubble.

As someone has said above, the DSC1 also provides a chance to meet with like minded people. If they're a good bunch, you'll actually have fun - albeit fun with exams at the end of it!

 

[Musketeer]

I don’t think he’s been refused at all I gather he hasn’t applied yet ?
admittedly being overly forceful doesn’t help but then again constant capitulation doesn’t either , especially for us as a shooting community , as has been shown a lot lately ...

I have not yet applied.

I had a conversation with FEO last week who said that D & C were moving away from the Mentor method and were looking more and more at evidence of experience. Any courses undertaken would be useful in providing this.

However the mentor option is still currently on the table, but for how long he did not know.

 

[Roestalker39]

I have not yet applied.

I had a conversation with FEO last week who said that D & C were moving away from the Mentor method and were looking more and more at evidence of experience. Any courses undertaken would be useful in providing this.

However the mentor option is still currently on the table, but for how long he did not know.

To be honest if you’ve done paid stalk and had a rimfire for 18 months I think that’s you’re experiance right there

 

[Alantoo]

snip...
I had a conversation with FEO last week who said that D & C were moving away from the Mentor method and were looking more and more at evidence of experience. Any courses undertaken would be useful in providing this.
snip..

And yet they were not going to take your Skill at Arms Instructor and RCO qualifications into account?

Bizarre.

Alan

 

[Archer]

And yet they were not going to take your Skill at Arms Instructor and RCO qualifications into account?

Bizarre.

Alan

Indicator of knowledge yes, ( I held those qualifications at time of my first application for an FAC) but I was told there is a world of difference between a military range and the open countryside- which I considered a fair comment- however I was ok'd for a CF/RF and had the FAC opened after 18 months when I could demonstrate good reason

 

[Alantoo]

Indicator of knowledge yes, ( I held those qualifications at time of my first application for an FAC) but I was told there is a world of difference between a military range and the open countryside- which I considered a fair comment- however I was ok'd for a CF/RF and had the FAC opened after 18 months when I could demonstrate good reason

Strange attitude isn't it? More people around at a military range so more risk one would think.

Part of my point, they were looking at evidence of experience but saying that any courses would be useful...but then moving away from the mentor system and discounting the Instructor and RCO courses.

DSC1 = another Indicator of Knowledge...not Experience?

Alan

 

[willie_gunn]

I think the experience the FEO is looking for - and which they will clearly prioritise - is that which specifically relates to the "good reason" behind you applying for a .243, i.e. deer and deer stalking.

I have no doubts that being an RCO, a Skill at Arms instructor, having a rimfire, etc is all great experience, but I don't personally see it as being particularly relevant to you wanting to shoot live deer with a centerfire rifle. Will it help you identify which deer are in season and which are not? Will it help you inspect and gralloch a deer? Will it help you spot anything untoward with the carcase?

Think of the reverse. Me having stalked for 25+ years, attended numerous training courses, and having shot a bunch of deer is of little relevance should I wish to qualify as an RCO. I would expect to have to gain an understanding of what was involved, and probably pass a test or two, before I was deemed suitably
qualified. Some years of experience doing the job - or shadowing someone doing it - would probably help.

You are about to go out, correctly identify and shoot live quarry, and then potentially put it into the human food chain where Joe Public might well eat it. This is what is at the core of the "good reason" you have stated behind owning a .243, and is what deer stalking is all about. Ponder on that, and then think what knowledge and experience you can offer up to the FEO that is directly relevant.

 

[sikamalc]

Excuse me for saying so, but you ask about Level 1 and then move onto taking clients out!!

If you have never managed or stalked a sufficient amount of deer how can you consider taking clients out? Would you know which buck to cull?

Taking Level one does not, nor has it ever qualified anyone to then be allowed to own and use a centre fire weapon for deer stalking, whether you have 500 acres or not. This will be down to the Chief Constable and the firearms manager to your FEO. There are guidelines handed down to each constabulary, and these guidelines can be applied as the chief constable sees fit. Besides, your ticket if you got one, will be a closed ticket. It is highly improbable that they would issue you with an open licence. This as a rule takes 5 years.

Having said that many constabularies request that you take Level 1 before they will consider letting you own a centre fire weapon. I would seek the advice of your FEO before embarking on taking Level 1, if you feel its too much money to fork out. If you look to our neighbours on the continent it will cost you considerably more than the standard £300 to get through their courses, all of which are required before you can go out with a rifle.

Also, with the greatest of respect, the fact that you were in the services has very little bearing on stalking and being responsible for a client whilst stalking. I would also add that if you intend on taking clients out on 500 acres for just Roe, you need to know which buck to cull and at what time. If not you could well over shoot them and any potential good quality bucks shot will soon ruin the overall quality of the Roe.

If you really are considering taking anyone out, you need experience and also an open licence if they are using the estate rifle system, also commercial insurance.

I would consider taking Level 1 and learning from it, and then gain a couple of years experience, no disrespect I think you are trying to run before you can walk, so to speak.
But I wish you every luck in the future.

 

[VSS]

Excuse me for saying so, but you ask about Level 1 and then move onto taking clients out!!

If you have never managed or stalked a sufficient amount of deer how can you consider taking clients out? Would you know which buck to cull?

Taking Level one does not, nor has it ever qualified anyone to then be allowed to own and use a centre fire weapon for deer stalking, whether you have 500 acres or not. This will be down to the Chief Constable and the firearms manager to your FEO. There are guidelines handed down to each constabulary, and these guidelines can be applied as the chief constable sees fit. Besides, your ticket if you got one, will be a closed ticket. It is highly improbable that they would issue you with an open licence. This as a rule takes 5 years.

Having said that many constabularies request that you take Level 1 before they will consider letting you own a centre fire weapon. I would seek the advice of your FEO before embarking on taking Level 1, if you feel its too much money to fork out. If you look to our neighbours on the continent it will cost you considerably more than the standard £300 to get through their courses, all of which are required before you can go out with a rifle.

Also, with the greatest of respect, the fact that you were in the services has very little bearing on stalking and being responsible for a client whilst stalking. I would also add that if you intend on taking clients out on 500 acres for just Roe, you need to know which buck to cull and at what time. If not you could well over shoot them and any potential good quality bucks shot will soon ruin the overall quality of the Roe.

If you really are considering taking anyone out, you need experience and also an open licence if they are using the estate rifle system, also commercial insurance.

I would consider taking Level 1 and learning from it, and then gain a couple of years experience, no disrespect I think you are trying to run before you can walk, so to speak.
But I wish you every luck in the future.

With respect Malc, I can't see anywhere that the OP has suggested that he'll be taking clients out.....
(Although I accept I may have missed that post. I'll read again!)

 

[sikamalc]

With respect Malc, I can't see anywhere that the OP has suggested that he'll be taking clients out.....
(Although I accept I may have missed that post. I'll read again!)

Post 17. But it appears I misread or misinterpreted what was written. If this is so my apologise. Its been a bad day today.

 

[stubear]

As others have said you dont NEED DSC1 to get a deer legal CF rifle, all you need is good reason as per the guidance and the law.

That said I found DSC1 useful and interesting, and I learnt a lot. Additionally a lot of syndicates ask for it as a pre-requisite for joining (both of mine did) and it is looked on favourably by the FLO. Further to that the DSC1 also covers you for shooting abroad, for example as an alternative to the Jadgschein in Germany.

Its not a substitute for experience and there are those whole will tot up all the pieces of paper they have and think that makes them an expert - clearly thats not the case. But it is a useful way to get some knowledge which you can then leverage in the field and meet some interesting people in the process.

 

[willie_gunn]

"In addition, I would be doing paid stalks in the future"

It is somewhat ambiguous.

I read it as the OP would be going on paid stalks in the future, but it could equally be read as planning to offer paid stalks in the future.