260 long range

139 Scenars...6.5mm...260 Rem. What MV was it running? I only ask as for a mile you'd need to push those pretty hard. I use the same bullet in 6.5CM at 2710fps for 1000 yds and that load is transonic by 1150 yds and subsonic by 1250 yds. At a mile it'd be down to something like 980fps. I've never pushed the scenar through transonic so don't know how stable it would be.

Counter-intuitive though it might seem, if you can't keep things above transsonic / supersonic speeds, a blunter / shorter (and therefore lower BC) bullet may give better performance and (assuming the sights have enough elevation to get there) give hits at a mile or so. Very long for calibre and very long-neck secant VLD type designs produce less drag and flatter trajectories than 'traditional' shorter / tangent shapes at higher speeds but are more likely to run into stability and turbulence issues as they drop down towards the speed of sound.

Lapua developed its 'D' series of rebated boat-tail FMJBTs way back in the 1920s to maximise the extreme effective range of 7.62X54R machineguns. During the final stages of WW1 massed long-range MG fire on fixed lines with whole machinegun battalions was widespread on the western front by both sides during nights to drop hails of bullets on supply areas, support trenches, road and rail heads used to bring supplies up and so on. Ranges as long as 4, even 5,000 metres were routine and after the war, a lot of development into ballistically optimal bullets was done with Lapua one of the leaders. By the time of WW2, massed MG fire had dropped out of favour, so ultimate range from rifle calibre bullets became unimportant -artillery shells though, now that was and still is a very different matter. As much of the flight is at subsonic speeds, transsonic and speed of sound barrier transition performance became very important as well as subsonic behaviours. By today's standards, the remaining D models such as the 0.308" 185gn D46 have really blunt shapes.

I learned this fact for myself when I started shooting 223 at modest MVs with 80gn bullets out to 1,000 yards 15 or so years ago. VLDs didn't do very well at this distance while the 'blunter' lower BC 80gn Sierra MK was a really well behaved number and did remarkably well - at least until the wind changed anyway. Definitely subsonic - the target markers always complained about the combination of a tiny hole and no sound signature. (In any event back then lots of people didn't believe the mouse gun would reach there never mind manage to occasionally produce a respectable score!) The original 155gn Palma 308 SMK (still around as product no. 2155 and loaded in the NRA's GGG match ammo) is the same - it barely stays supersonic fired from 308 Win TR rifles at 1,000 on lower lying ranges like Bisley, but continues to shoot well such is its inherent stability.

One thing to note is that many of the impressive US very long-range shoots you see on YouTube videos and suchlike on alfresco desert ranges take place in higher temperatures and altitudes than we'd ever shoot at here. Google 'Scotty and Chuck Long Range Challenge' YouTube videos for a whole series of ELR gong shoots with 6SLR and 6.5 Creedmoor rifles (and not super-length barrel custom match jobs either). Chuck's Creedmoor was shooting 123gn Scenars at 3,020 fps MV and I've been told by a participant that he got some hits (not on the videos AFAIK) at 1,900 and 2,000 yards, but they were subsonic at those distances. However, the 'range' is near Pyramid Lake in Nevada some 4,000 ft ASL and temperatures were in the 90s. That combination takes all the barriers out a lot further than we'd ever see in the UK due to the thinner air hence much reduced drag.

(I've always found the 123 Scenar an impressive performer out to 1,000 and doubling that distance is impressive from such a relatively light bullet. It also says that its form characteristics are such that it must cope very well with both speed transitions.) The 139 should be fine too and possibly even more so the antediluvian, but still excellent 142gn SMK in 6.5 Creedmoor, 260 Rem, and 6.5X55mm.
 
Counter-intuitive though it might seem, if you can't keep things above transsonic / supersonic speeds, a blunter / shorter (and therefore lower BC) bullet may give better performance and (assuming the sights have enough elevation to get there) give hits at a mile or so. Very long for calibre and very long-neck secant VLD type designs produce less drag and flatter trajectories than 'traditional' shorter / tangent shapes at higher speeds but are more likely to run into stability and turbulence issues as they drop down towards the speed of sound.

Lapua developed its 'D' series of rebated boat-tail FMJBTs way back in the 1920s to maximise the extreme effective range of 7.62X54R machineguns. During the final stages of WW1 massed long-range MG fire on fixed lines with whole machinegun battalions was widespread on the western front by both sides during nights to drop hails of bullets on supply areas, support trenches, road and rail heads used to bring supplies up and so on. Ranges as long as 4, even 5,000 metres were routine and after the war, a lot of development into ballistically optimal bullets was done with Lapua one of the leaders. By the time of WW2, massed MG fire had dropped out of favour, so ultimate range from rifle calibre bullets became unimportant -artillery shells though, now that was and still is a very different matter. As much of the flight is at subsonic speeds, transsonic and speed of sound barrier transition performance became very important as well as subsonic behaviours. By today's standards, the remaining D models such as the 0.308" 185gn D46 have really blunt shapes.

I learned this fact for myself when I started shooting 223 at modest MVs with 80gn bullets out to 1,000 yards 15 or so years ago. VLDs didn't do very well at this distance while the 'blunter' lower BC 80gn Sierra MK was a really well behaved number and did remarkably well - at least until the wind changed anyway. Definitely subsonic - the target markers always complained about the combination of a tiny hole and no sound signature. (In any event back then lots of people didn't believe the mouse gun would reach there never mind manage to occasionally produce a respectable score!) The original 155gn Palma 308 SMK (still around as product no. 2155 and loaded in the NRA's GGG match ammo) is the same - it barely stays supersonic fired from 308 Win TR rifles at 1,000 on lower lying ranges like Bisley, but continues to shoot well such is its inherent stability.

One thing to note is that many of the impressive US very long-range shoots you see on YouTube videos and suchlike on alfresco desert ranges take place in higher temperatures and altitudes than we'd ever shoot at here. Google 'Scotty and Chuck Long Range Challenge' YouTube videos for a whole series of ELR gong shoots with 6SLR and 6.5 Creedmoor rifles (and not super-length barrel custom match jobs either). Chuck's Creedmoor was shooting 123gn Scenars at 3,020 fps MV and I've been told by a participant that he got some hits (not on the videos AFAIK) at 1,900 and 2,000 yards, but they were subsonic at those distances. However, the 'range' is near Pyramid Lake in Nevada some 4,000 ft ASL and temperatures were in the 90s. That combination takes all the barriers out a lot further than we'd ever see in the UK due to the thinner air hence much reduced drag.

(I've always found the 123 Scenar an impressive performer out to 1,000 and doubling that distance is impressive from such a relatively light bullet. It also says that its form characteristics are such that it must cope very well with both speed transitions.) The 139 should be fine too and possibly even more so the antediluvian, but still excellent 142gn SMK in 6.5 Creedmoor, 260 Rem, and 6.5X55mm.

I agree entirely Laurie as it matches my own (although compared with yours, rather limited!) experience. The only .308 bullet that I've been able to grab (I had no luck finding the juggernauts when shooting the .308 to 1000yds +) were 190SMKs and they shot unbelievably well, keeping stability through transonic. I remember my first outing with them shooting against a few for sport who were using 175TMKs at higher velocities. The 190's won the day with a 10 shot group from a standard factory rifle of just 10" at 1000yds in slightly variable conditions.

I tried the 155 Palma SMKs (new shape secant ogive) but could only get them running to about 2,850fps in my rifle with it's shorter-than-ideal barrel, and they were hopeless through transonic, scattering the bullets over almost a 2ft spread or more! The older 2155's did indeed fare much better at those MVs.

I have tried both the 123gr Scenars at 2,900fps and the 139 Scenar's at 2750fps. Both give impressive performance at 1000 yds and beyond but I think that my preference always has been the 139s. They seem to have the edge in group sizes for me at any range but that may simply be that I've put more load development time into them. They're a true one load, one bullet for all ranges design and using small primer brass, I've shot them from 100 yds (managing a best group of 0.18 inches) and out well beyond 1000yds to perhaps 1200 where despite then being in the transonic region have remained relatively stable. Perhaps not to the same degree as the 190 SMK to 1000yds from the .308 but surprisingly well nonetheless. You've piqued my appetite for trying the 142 SMK as that is one that so far has eluded me. Interesting to note that the little 123 was the bullet of choice for the ultra LR "Scotty & Chuck challenge!

The other surprise LR contender for me in 6.5 is the 6.5 "heavy" hunting bullet from Hornady, the 140SST. It shoots like a match bullet and is considerably cheaper then its ELD stablemates, and one I would recommend for anyone who has yet to try it. At 1000 yds it performs admirably from an MV of around 2650fps.
 
Great responses to the post and its turned into 'everyday is a chool day' lots of knowledge to be shared, for now I am swinging more towards another scope with more adjustment and then one day may swing towards 6.5x284!:)
 
Great responses to the post and its turned into 'everyday is a chool day' lots of knowledge to be shared, for now I am swinging more towards another scope with more adjustment and then one day may swing towards 6.5x284!:)

Plenty will reach out far Woody. Don't forget the excellent Burris XTR Signature rings which can give you up to 40moa (11.8 Mils) and scopes like the S&B PMII which are ideally suited for ultra long range with up to 26 Mills (65moa). Using the 139 Scenar and the PMII, I dial about 9 Mils of elevation for 1000 yds and with my load data and DOPE I reckon on about 25MRad for a mile which is easily within the scope and reticle graduations reach without needing much elevation using the ring shims. I do have a 5moa shim set presently as much of my shooting is at distance and it helps keep the adjustments form being at the extremes of the turret range.

Cheaper still, but still with impressive reach is the affordable Bushnell DMR range of scopes. I've seen a lot of 50 Cal users with these mounted on their rifles for ULR shooting. That has a whopping 30 Mils of internal elevation adjustment. I've been using one alongside my PMII for years, mounted to a .308. It's not in the same category for glass but I much preferred it to a Sightron S3 I tried. Picture is better, edge to edge, clearer and with a good, clear M-Rad hash ret in FFP. On the .308 I need about 11 mils at 1000 yds and the scope has plenty of adjustment without a rail beyond this reach.
 
Plenty will reach out far Woody. Don't forget the excellent Burris XTR Signature rings which can give you up to 40moa (11.8 Mils) and scopes like the S&B PMII which are ideally suited for ultra long range with up to 26 Mills (65moa). Using the 139 Scenar and the PMII, I dial about 9 Mils of elevation for 1000 yds and with my load data and DOPE I reckon on about 25MRad for a mile which is easily within the scope and reticle graduations reach without needing much elevation using the ring shims. I do have a 5moa shim set presently as much of my shooting is at distance and it helps keep the adjustments form being at the extremes of the turret range.

Cheaper still, but still with impressive reach is the affordable Bushnell DMR range of scopes. I've seen a lot of 50 Cal users with these mounted on their rifles for ULR shooting. That has a whopping 30 Mils of internal elevation adjustment. I've been using one alongside my PMII for years, mounted to a .308. It's not in the same category for glass but I much preferred it to a Sightron S3 I tried. Picture is better, edge to edge, clearer and with a good, clear M-Rad hash ret in FFP. On the .308 I need about 11 mils at 1000 yds and the scope has plenty of adjustment without a rail beyond this reach.
That's really interesting, my Schmidt and Bender pm11 5-25x56 is running short, 0MOA mount Sphur but 20MOA rail on rifle, unless I am missing something, was looking at the S&B high power x45 and NF x35 ATACR although never used NF.
 
This could be Woody due to the height above barrel axis to scope axis? I have no problems using one on my Tikka Tac A1, with plenty to spare at 1000 yds from a 100 yd zero. May be worth double checking the rings set-up?
 
The only .308 bullet that I've been able to grab (I had no luck finding the juggernauts when shooting the .308 to 1000yds +) were 190SMKs and they shot unbelievably well, keeping stability through transonic.

This bullet has a long-time reputation in this role. It was a favourite among Match Rifle competitors (308 Win out to 1,200 yards matches) until the newer generation of high-BC 200-215gn models appeared. At a time when no 308 Win bullet could be kept supersonic for MR's 1,100 and 1,200 yard stages, it was the 190 SMK's stability in travelling through speed barriers such a good performer.
 
I still have some here Laurie. They can punch a bit when driven! I tend to load to about 2,500fps max from a 24 inch tube. That's starting to hammer the brass though...
They remain my favourite LR .308 bullet and they stabilise well in even a 1/11 twist.
 
142 smk buck the transonic very well. Need plus 40moa rail to reach a mile with 260/6.5 creedmoor. Be prepared to find your misses sticking in the ground like lawn darts if the ground is hard.
 
Out with the 260 improved this morning for some confirmation testing with RS60 and 150 smk

Shot series of loads in .2 g increments moving seat depth out a further .010”from the first load jump of .020”

Established a few things

Accuracy is confirmed at .2’ with three of the five loads tested

Velocity bang on circa 2800-2900 and appears to be the node for this bullet

Pressure is as predicted with P-Max program which is almost bang on if you pardon the pun

Es very low two digits

Very happy
 
Very good velocities, be interesting to see how well it preforms at the longer ranges with the heavier bullets, sounds like a shooter!
 
Litz predicts just over 7 Mil to 1000 and 1.5 Mil drift in 10mph full value.

Will confirm this tomorrow at 1000 and beyond to confirm accuracy of program, should be fine to a mile and just supersonic (stable) (this is for target by the way)

I have another barrel for solids with the same rifle for deer, they are going quite a bit faster...
 
So to be brief, I went and shot the rifle and load at 942 mtrs (1030 yds) yesterday

Estimated the wind at 10mph full value, dialled in on scope and put first round downrange, wpotting a hit / splash slightly high and right ( from behind target), so added another .3 MIL and sent another four down range.

The 260 Improved works just fine (dont tell the Creedmoor chaps :doh:)

Ballistic-X-Export-2020-06-04-09-00-47-273039.png



Not conventional for deer work, but in current set up, its for Precision Rifle Competition, I have a shorter barrel for deer (two min swap over)

IMG-4997.jpg


More pics and build story here - (its a 260 so thought relevent to this thread) :

 
Thanks for sharing that, wind is your enemy but that rifle performs very well, a proper shooter!
 
260 does indeed work fine and I don't understand all the ribbing 6.5CM guys give .260 shooters or that .260 shooters give the 6.5CM guys. The only reason I bought a CM over a .260 was that I figured longer term, there'd be a wider variety of brass and factory ammo plus more off the shelf factory rifles on offer for the 6.5 as it has got pretty popular and has outsold the .260 world wide in recent years. Some manufacturers have dropped the .260 from their chambering line ups for that reason. That doesn't make it any worse for shooting, just less commercially viable than it once was.

That's marketing for you. Invent solutions for problems that don't really exist and hey-presto you outsell every other 6.5 chambering going! The one advantage that CM does enjoy is it's ability to use the longer, heavier rounds and load closer to the lands without taking up as much valuable case capacity. It's true that 6.5CM and .260 both actually have similar case capacity, of not the same with some bullets as the 260 needs the bullets seated further in, eliminating any capacity advantage it started with. Whatever the arguments for each, it's fair to say that there's not really a knats whisker between any of the 6.5 offerings at 1000 yds.
 
Back
Top