Cycle Roundabouts

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Apthorpe said:
Not least because the council vehicles and buses all routinely ignore the limit so have disproportionately high closing speeds and of course are not what pedestrians expect.
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I frequently use a main access road into the town centre that was reduced from 30 to 20 several years ago as part of a fair sized area 20 mph scheme mainly of narrow Victorian streets.

So far in several years useage since the change, I have regularly followed police vehicles, ambulances, city council vehicles, service buses, and perhaps most of all cyclists breaking the limit. None of the emergency vehicle drivers used blues & twos, so weren't apparently on anything other than routine runs. As far as I can see only three groups consistently obey the limit: tourists and other out of towners, taxis, and local residents coming off side roads. I understand the taxi drivers disagree with the limit, but a speeding conviction is disastrous for their license and insurance.

Despite signs saying 'Police Speed Check Area', I've never heard of the police enforcing the limit and the only checks are occasional groups of local residents in yellow high-vis jackets who have no legal powers using a hand-held speed gun.

20 mph is appropriate for the majority of the area being narrow streets of Victorian workers terraces with cars parked on both sides. However, speeding wasn't generally a problem in them as the usable space between the parked vehicles isn't usually wide enough to allow two cars travelling in opposite directions to pass and barely allows buses and council waste lorries to get through. (Oftentimes they can't at that!) In fact, IIRC the bus diversion through the middle of the area was firstly rerouted to be one-way so two buses couldn't meet head-on, then the bus company removed the loop run into the residential area completely thanks to the frequent delays and stoppages. So nobody other than those on two-wheelers can drive at over 20 anyway and motorists didn't need signs every few hundred yards to tell them so. This is one of five or six such schemes in the city I live nearby and the local newspaper cited the costs at £500,000-600,000 for each.
 
Laurie said:
I frequently use a main access road into the town centre that was reduced from 30 to 20 several years ago as part of a fair sized area 20 mph scheme mainly of narrow Victorian streets.

So far in several years useage since the change, I have regularly followed police vehicles, ambulances, city council vehicles, service buses, and perhaps most of all cyclists breaking the limit. None of the emergency vehicle drivers used blues & twos, so weren't apparently on anything other than routine runs. As far as I can see only three groups consistently obey the limit: tourists and other out of towners, taxis, and local residents coming off side roads. I understand the taxi drivers disagree with the limit, but a speeding conviction is disastrous for their license and insurance.

Despite signs saying 'Police Speed Check Area', I've never heard of the police enforcing the limit and the only checks are occasional groups of local residents in yellow high-vis jackets who have no legal powers using a hand-held speed gun.

20 mph is appropriate for the majority of the area being narrow streets of Victorian workers terraces with cars parked on both sides. However, speeding wasn't generally a problem in them as the usable space between the parked vehicles isn't usually wide enough to allow two cars travelling in opposite directions to pass and barely allows buses and council waste lorries to get through. (Oftentimes they can't at that!) In fact, IIRC the bus diversion through the middle of the area was firstly rerouted to be one-way so two buses couldn't meet head-on, then the bus company removed the loop run into the residential area completely thanks to the frequent delays and stoppages. So nobody other than those on two-wheelers can drive at over 20 anyway and motorists didn't need signs every few hundred yards to tell them so. This is one of five or six such schemes in the city I live nearby and the local newspaper cited the costs at £500,000-600,000 for each.
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Most of these schemes attract government grants for the full costs (TSG) so if its government policy you are going to get some. TSG is a bit like a mortgage, its repaid from Council Tax income on the drip over 25 years. In theory money for the 'mortgage payment' is added to the governments revenue support grant which it makes annually to the Council. This mortgage payment is not bound to be paid back into transport expenditure so its nearly always spent on the two big budget items social services and education. This usually leaves the highway revenue budget short so things like surface dressing programmes etc get reduced accordingly.
 
Had to stop at an accident 2 weeks ago where a cyclist had his feet locked into the pedals couldnt stop at a junction and hit a passing car broadside
Luckily the car driver saw him wobbling and jumped on his brakes.
My wife worked in a@e and the number of falls and injuries without cars involved are staggering
 
kes said:
Cyclist are perhaps more 'militant' than they perhaps should be.
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I suspect this is the crux of the anonymity thing - a goodly proportion of cyclists have become the road user equivalent of the internet troll as they know they are untraceable and they also know they are "entitled" and this has lead to a very odd attitude that has no place on a public highway. For a little while I had to commute to work through a busy town centre during the evening rush hour. The traffic on one particular street was basically alternating between crawling forward and stationary and I went up this street every evening for quite a few nights. Every evening I watched a cyclist, with air horns fitted to his bike, cycle up the inside of the traffic until he spotted a truck or van turning left. He would then wait until the van had started its manoeuvre and "nip up the inside" and he would then be overcome with rage and entitlement as he pretended that the driver had nearly killed him and as well as going with his air horns he would shout and scream and kick the sides of the vehicles. When you watch the various cycling victim cam videos on the likes of youtube you realise that there is a whole community out there who get on their bike each day in order to be aggressive, cause a fight, become offended, and potentially cause a road accident. I can't remember the last time I had a "near miss" while driving my car and yet these people manage it every day, sometimes even when the other traffic is stationary. For this reason we need a programme of registration such that those on push bikes may be easily and readily identified as I have seen good evidence that many of these people aren't cycling as a means of transport but as a way to be aggressive towards others and to enhance their feeling of victimhood and this is not a combination of traits that should be on the public highway.

The other side to this is that I have a friend who is a keen cyclist and while she tries to cycle off the public road as often as possible, if only for her own enjoyment, she also cycles on the road quite often. When I approach a cyclist that I need to pass I always consider her, and her kids and husband, and I treat the cyclist as I'd like to see other motorists treat her, or as I'd treat her myself. She won't wear a camera as she doesn't want associated with the "victim cam" cyclists nor does she want people to think that she is associated with them, she isn't on the road to cause an accident but to mind her own business so she has no need of publishing victim cam videos on youtube and because of her attitude she would have no material for such a video.
 
Its a funny old World. An hour ago I stepped out of the local post office and was run into by two teenagers racing along on the pavement on bikes. and they were going plenty fast enough. The first one hit me and his mate hit the both of us.

To say I was bloody annoyed is inadequate. Not a word of apology , they just rode off. :mad:

( I dare say one or two on here would say it was my own fault for going to the Post Office in the first place. )

Most likely been told by Mummy not to ride on the road... Grrh
 
Riding on the footway is still a traffic offence - the police dont summons anyone because the poor cyclist (who chooses to ride) stands more of a risk on the road than off it.
I would insist on insurance for this problem alone as Ade(above) confirms, being lucky he was not injured.
 
kes said:
Riding on the footway is still a traffic offence - the police dont summons anyone because the poor cyclist (who chooses to ride) stands more of a risk on the road than off it.
I would insist on insurance for this problem alone as Ade(above) confirms, being lucky he was not injured.
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Yes I wasn't injured. Had I been one of the old boys/girls who frequent that place (Post Office) I most likely would have been, possibly fatally. If not as a result of a broken hip then by catching cvirus in hospital.
This morning, on the way to check the sheep a cyclist with earphones in rode straight over a crossroads in front of me. (I had right of way. Clearly marked) I slammed on the brakes and hit the horn. He would have been killed otherwise. He carried on oblvious! This was no eco warrior cycling to work, he was clearly using the lanes round here as an place to carry out his hobby. Yet (as we have seen in this thread) cyclists continue to enjoy the abject support of apologists for their stupidity! Some of our membership (dear VSS for example - though I generally support his liberal stance on most things) maybe due to their own location, are fortunate enough not to suffer or bear witness to some of the crass and dangerous behaviour many self empowered and oh so self righteous cyclists show. And by the way, before the usual apologists interject, whilst cyclists may well be outnumbered by cars, I see far more stupdity, ignorance and downright dangerous practice (pro-rata) exhibited by cyclists than I do by car, lorry, tractor, van, motorcyclists and wheel- barrow drivers/riders/pushers(?) etc.
I know I am not alone with this observation.
But its OK as the twa* at the crossroads probably got a new personal best on Strava, .🙄

The message from some vocal apologists on this thread is you can cause mayhem on the roads but as you are a "threatened minority" (cyclists) that is OK .

What a World it is becoming..
 
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I believe these days you can ride as fast as you like on your own hearth rug while watching telly/which screams at you till you get a sweat on ,pillockon or something like that i,m not sure.:old:
 
bluesako said:
i am not in the slightest interested what motorists do they dont drive on pavements or hassle me when im walking like moronic cyclists do bs
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Neither motorists nor cyclists should be riding/driving on the pavement. I've no doubt, given the behaviour of some motorists, that there are folk who would drive on the pavement if it were wide enough and it suited their own purposes at any particular moment - just as they will drive in 'bus and cycles lanes if it suits them, or use the 'phone. break the speed limit etc, etc.

Simply put, like the pavement cyclists, these people are recklessly selfish, as well as breaking the law.
 
Dalua said:
Neither motorists nor cyclists should be riding/driving on the pavement. I've no doubt, given the behaviour of some motorists, that there are folk who would drive on the pavement if it were wide enough and it suited their own purposes at any particular moment - just as they will drive in 'bus and cycles lanes if it suits them, or use the 'phone. break the speed limit etc, etc.

Simply put, like the pavement cyclists, these people are recklessly selfish, as well as breaking the law.
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So, ergo, a number plate would facilitate some form of recording and reporting, no?
 
ndt man said:
No but my insurance company will. if cycles want to use the roads why should you not have insurance or a regerstration just like the rest of us ?
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Why not? Er....for the lengthy list of perfectly good reasons that have meant that for the past 150 years, cyclists don't. How long does it take to get over it?
 
Ade8mm said:
So, ergo, a number plate would facilitate some form of recording and reporting, no?
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The reports followed up by......?
Nobody. The police don't bother even when it's handed to them on a plate, nor with considerably more serious crimes.

My wife was hit and seriously injured by a cab, witnessed by a policeman and several other witnesses, recorded on CCTV, the driver's registration, personal details, taxi licence were all taken down, the driver admitted liability on the scene. Resulting police action: zero. They didn't even manage to record it properly, nor acquire the CCTV, or any other step. Insurance company? Still not settled more than 18 months later.

Numberplates and pointless bureaucracy will achieve zero. For two reasons: one - there is very little reason for it anyway because the problem is tiny. Two - nobody is going to follow up on those reports anyway. It's a fantasy grudge.
 
Apthorpe said:
The reports followed up by......?
Nobody. The police don't bother even when it's handed to them on a plate, nor with considerably more serious crimes.

My wife was hit and seriously injured by a cab, witnessed by a policeman and several other witnesses, recorded on CCTV, the driver's registration, personal details, taxi licence were all taken down, the driver admitted liability on the scene. Resulting police action: zero. They didn't even manage to record it properly, nor acquire the CCTV, or any other step. Insurance company? Still not settled more than 18 months later.

Numberplates and pointless bureaucracy will achieve zero. For two reasons: one - there is very little reason for it anyway because the problem is tiny. Two - nobody is going to follow up on those reports anyway. It's a fantasy grudge.
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On yer bike ! 😂
 
Apthorpe said:
The reports followed up by......?
Nobody. The police don't bother even when it's handed to them on a plate, nor with considerably more serious crimes.

My wife was hit and seriously injured by a cab, witnessed by a policeman and several other witnesses, recorded on CCTV, the driver's registration, personal details, taxi licence were all taken down, the driver admitted liability on the scene. Resulting police action: zero. They didn't even manage to record it properly, nor acquire the CCTV, or any other step. Insurance company? Still not settled more than 18 months later.

Numberplates and pointless bureaucracy will achieve zero. For two reasons: one - there is very little reason for it anyway because the problem is tiny. Two - nobody is going to follow up on those reports anyway. It's a fantasy grudge.
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I only commented on this thread as I was so amazed at the complete blind support for cycling, without any acceptance that cyclists are far from paragons of virtue.
(If a similar thread referred to car drivers I wonder if there would be so many rabid apologists?)

I have far more important issues to spend my time on, as I am sure we all have. I come on SD for a break , but commented a few times as I couldn't believe what I was reading.

Aye.
 
Apthorpe said:
Numberplates and pointless bureaucracy will achieve zero. For two reasons: one - there is very little reason for it anyway because the problem is tiny. Two - nobody is going to follow up on those reports anyway. It's a fantasy grudge.
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You make good points and are probably correct that the amount of "police interest" might be low. However, police are very interested in motoring crime because the law is such that if a vehicle carrying your number plate commits a crime you are obliged to inform the police who was driving at that time or there is a penalty. This makes many motoring crimes very simple to detect and the motorist basically has to volunteer for the penalty or they will be subject to an even greater penalty, in terms of clear up rate it is a real win for the police and so they chase many motoring crimes with great enthusiasm.

Another angle on this is that I don't object to my car carrying a number plate, in fact some people are so attached to their number plates that they get personal ones that reflect their personality in some way. Why would cyclists object so strongly to number plates, licensing, and insurance when motorists generally embrace these things and appreciate their benefit? Putting a number plate on your bike is no great tragedy unless, of course, you are about to do something where the number plate could be provided to the police to identify you.

The other thing I will say is that I don't think the problem is tiny. It is many years since I saw a motorist do something that left me wishing I'd got the number so I could phone the police but when I walk around the town I frequently find myself wishing that the bike I've just observed had a number plate. One day recently I was nearly knocked down, by a cyclist, on a crossing, with the green man on display, as I crossed the road and the same day I watched a cyclist fly through a crossing (against a red light and with the green man showing for the pedestrians) passing between two elderly ladies who were chatting as they crossed and leaving them shocked but thankfully untouched. Most of us have also seen the cyclist who steams through the red light leaving motorists to take avoiding action etc. I would guestimate that, based on past experience, if bikes were to get number plates then I'd be reporting a cyclist to the police maybe 2 or 3 times per week. Unless, of course, the sudden loss of anonymity produced a dramatic change in behaviour. It would also be interesting to see if, after the introduction of number plates for bikes, there was any reduction in the number of cyclists involved in collisions. I would suggest that having their name and address on the back of their bikes in the shape of a number plate could be a big safety measure for many cyclists, indeed many of the victim cam cyclists might give up cycling altogether and move on to another hobby where they can be anonymously aggressive and get away with it.
 
Ade8mm said:
So, ergo, a number plate would facilitate some form of recording and reporting, no?
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Indeed! Perhaps we should all have an identification number on our clothing, visible prominently from all sides, whenever we're in a public place? That way no-one would ever do anything bad.

I get the feeling that the desire to register bicycles in this way is mainly expressed by motorists who are affronted that other road-users retain ancient freedoms which have since the inception of their foul, polluting and dangerous conveyances been, for very good reasons, denied them.

Tough titty!

🙃
 
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