Any Ballistic evidence for 12 vs. 20 bore at 28 grams?

[Magnificent 7]

If it works for you then it's the right cartridge. Rather you than me though with a light SBS game gun on a biggish day, some cartridges thump a bit.
I chicken out and use light loads of I'm going to firing a lot, generally with a heavy gun too.
As you said,horses for courses.

Thats using a 12 not a 20 I may add

 

[Liveonce]

Ask some of the top shooters if they ever pattern their gun and they say no, think the value of a pattern plate is questionable, may be useful to compare choke performance.

Over the years have seen a lot of game shot with all gauges, they all will do the job on sensible hight birds with suitable cartridges. Confidence in what you are using is the key, have you considered a 28gauge.

Moving to steel shot will be a concern for guns that find the weight of 12ga and 20ga an issue due to health or age as currently no biodegradable wads in any other gauges suitable for steel shot.

 

[Malxwal]

Get yourself a nice AYA#2 16 bore. As it happens, I have one with about 2500 cartridges I'd sell .
There's an awful lot to be said for being comfortable and confident in what you shoot. I've settled with RC Sipe 26gr cartridges in 20g, more than enough to kill any well presented pheasant or partridge, with a level of recoil I'm comfortable with.

 

[User00025]

I use an old English sidelock and shoot 2.5" cartridges. An ounce load of number 5's or number 6's from 1/4 choke (both barrels).
This copes happily with any bird within 40 yards,
Anything further than that in my opinion is only shot at by numpties looking for a big ego. All this 60yard high stuff and 36gram loads is what has started to kill off driven shooting, and rightly so.
On the back of the old 10/- gun licence it stated the effective range of a 12 bore to be 35 yards, my case rests.

 

[Jelen]

Always tickles me how shotgun shooters assume that their load will work well in different gun/ choke combination. I often ask how a particular cartridge patterns at a pattern plate in their gun,blank stare is quite often the answer.
Rifle shooters tend to experiment a bit then settle on a load, based on results at target. Different strokes etc I guess.

My Boss once asked me to pattern a selection of expensive cartridges prior to his trip to North Devon. He had a pair of Berretta side locks with 30" barrels.
I duly spent a couple of hours shooting 5 from each barrel at 36" squares of paper. Out of interest i also patterned some cheap 5 shot 30gr loads. Each paper was annoted with the cartridge used. When I finished I rolled them all up and left them in his gunroom. A few days later he sent me to pick up the cartridges for his trip. 3 slabs of expensive cartridges. The best and most consistant cartridges I'd patterned were the cheap loads! I can only suppose he didn't want people seeing him with cheap cartridges.
The best cartridges for pattern and minimum recoil in my old English boxlock 1/4 and 1/2 choke were Ely Impax, 1 ounce of 6 shot. never a gap in the pattern that a Partridge could fly through. Sadly the same couldn't be said for my shooting

 

[Heym SR20]

Capstick did an in depth comparison of the 12 and 20 over several months. He used the same model of Browning Citori - one in 12, the other in 20, with same measurements etc.

Over several days shooting at lots of driven and walked up game with an even number of shots with calibres and keeping score of the number of hits and clean kills he came to the conclusion that the 12 was more consistent with a better hit and better clean kill ratio.

You need to compare like with like, as side by sides shoot differently to over and unders.
Plenty switch from a 12 bore SxS to a 20 ou, as they weigh and feel quite similar. Most 12 ou are 1lb heavier than a comparable sxs.

In the field on most walked up and driven game performance tends to be pretty similar - some shoot better with the sxs, others better with the ou.

But where it counts in the competition field or on the higher driven bird shoots, 12s are used by most of the top guns, and that includes female shots.

Personally I have shot 28gram 20 bore out of both an OU and side by side. My ou Rizzini is same weight as my 12 sxs Alex Martin. 28g is the former is horrible and snappy, 28 in the latter is smooth. 28g in my daughters AyA no3 20bore is bloody horrible as well - she sticks to 21g and kills well with it.

I am increasingly of the view that the 16bore with a 1oz load built on properly scaled action is probably the perfect game gun. Does everything you need, but without the weight of the 12. The 20 is really a 3/4oz of shot type gun, but everybody to put an ounce through it.

I am actually quite happy with my 410 William Jeffery. Especially if I am walking and working the dog and only taking things that break back. If i pick and choose my shots and keep ranges under 30 it kills just as well as my 12.

 

[stubear]

I've been shooting shotguns since I was 10 and I'm now nearly 38 - started out on a 20g and then moved on to a 12g when I was bigger.

In all honesty I've not noticed any difference between them. 20g are lighter guns to handle and as such nicer to carry around all day, but with equivalent shot weights and sizes theres naff all in it. They certainly kill as well as each other from what I've seen.

It probably makes a difference to those who are right up there scores wise. 99/100 with a 12g, 98/100 with a 20g or something, but for most of us mere mortals at realistic shooting ranges? Get the one you fancy.

Its the same as the .270 vs .308 discussion - 150g bullet in each and whats the difference at practical stalking ranges? 0.03" and thats about it.

 

[Magnificent 7]

Ask some of the top shooters if they ever pattern their gun and they say no, think the value of a pattern plate is questionable, may be useful to compare choke performance.

Over the years have seen a lot of game shot with all gauges, they all will do the job on sensible hight birds with suitable cartridges. Confidence in what you are using is the key, have you considered a 28gauge.

Moving to steel shot will be a concern for guns that find the weight of 12ga and 20ga an issue due to health or age as currently no biodegradable wads in any other gauges suitable for steel shot.

Think the modern game shots are pattern plating there guns the old time men using 28gram of 7

I use an old English sidelock and shoot 2.5" cartridges. An ounce load of number 5's or number 6's from 1/4 choke (both barrels).
This copes happily with any bird within 40 yards,
Anything further than that in my opinion is only shot at by numpties looking for a big ego. All this 60yard high stuff and 36gram loads is what has started to kill off driven shooting, and rightly so.
On the back of the old 10/- gun licence it stated the effective range of a 12 bore to be 35 yards, my case rests.

Modern technology with guns chokes and cartridges gives you the option to shoot better birds as for killing of driven shooting all the days ive taken have been full perhaps killing it for the old fuddy duddy who won't accept change and go Modern are you still using iron sights and black.powder with your stalking ?

 

[Rhodesianjess]

I am actually quite happy with my 410 William Jeffery.

I love using my o/u 410. In woodland situations ie forestry and the like, you get to seriously p**s off the guy pegged next to you if he's using a "proper" gun.
I've heard them all, from idiot stick to good crippling bore. Even better fun when you show them that you're using 67 mm with 14 gram loads!
How to make friends and influence people

 

[User00025]

Think the modern game shots are pattern plating there guns the old time men using 28gram of 7

Modern technology with guns chokes and cartridges gives you the option to shoot better birds as for killing of driven shooting all the days ive taken have been full perhaps killing it for the old fuddy duddy who won't accept change and go Modern are you still using iron sights and black.powder with your stalking ?

I know and you know, exactly what is going to drive the final nail and ok it's been spoken of before so not really anti food anymore.
Extremely high birds in large quantities with these wonderful modern cartridges you speak of, leads to more pricked birds at extreme heights.
Over a long time keepering I have seen a lot of it whilst picking up and loading. As an old fuddy duddy and with a best English gun choked for game I would happily take you on at reasonable birds with your all singing all dancing piece of modern technology. If you can't kill a pheasant with an ounce of shot you shouldn't shoot at it.
Regarding stalking I would shoot black powder if legal but it wouldn't give the required limits.
I do use telescopic sights but at what I consider reasonable distances. Yet again happy to shoot out to 200 with iron sights, did it for a long while out to 1000 yards.
Sounds like you are a whiz kid with all the gear......

 

[Rhodesianjess]

Extremely high birds in large quantities with these wonderful modern cartridges you speak of, leads to more pricked birds at extreme heights

Agreed, I keepered 5 seasons at a high birds shoot in Rutland. Day after a shoot, sweeping roosting areas would yield sometimes 15 birds or more.
Catching up would yield birds with toes shot off, bastard joints on wings broken, pierced beaks .
Pattern failed due to distance, still enough energy though.
Food for thought for exponents of high birds.

 

[Magnificent 7]

I know and you know, exactly what is going to drive the final nail and ok it's been spoken of before so not really anti food anymore.
Extremely high birds in large quantities with these wonderful modern cartridges you speak of, leads to more pricked birds at extreme heights.
Over a long time keepering I have seen a lot of it whilst picking up and loading. As an old fuddy duddy and with a best English gun choked for game I would happily take you on at reasonable birds with your all singing all dancing piece of modern technology. If you can't kill a pheasant with an ounce of shot you shouldn't shoot at it.
Regarding stalking I would shoot black powder if legal but it wouldn't give the required limits.
I do use telescopic sights but at what I consider reasonable distances. Yet again happy to shoot out to 200 with iron sights, did it for a long while out to 1000 yards.
Sounds like you are a whiz kid with all the gear......

Not at all but things move on that's all I'm trying to say technology moves on cartrodges and guns of yesterday as a bus ride away from stuff today therefore ranges extend far beyond your old 12 and eley impacts FACT

 

[Rhodesianjess]

Not at all but things move on that's all I'm trying to say technology moves on cartrodges and guns of yesterday as a bus ride away from stuff today therefore ranges extend far beyond your old 12 and eley impacts FACT

My beloved 410 case in point. The Eley fourlong I used as a youngster not a spot on the modern 410 Eley trap cartridges.
Mind you,if you open one up it seems to have used a lot of Fiocci components in it's construction!

 

[Utectok]

I’ve shot 28gm 6s through both 12 and 20 half and 1/4 choke. Ballistics says they will pattern the same although I’d Say my 20 bore is slightly tighter tested on paper. There really isn’t much in it for effective killing. The most important thing is the gun fit, feel and swing. Whatever you shoot better! It’s always more to do with where it’s pointing than the type of gun.

 

[User00025]

Not at all but things move on that's all I'm trying to say technology moves on cartrodges and guns of yesterday as a bus ride away from stuff today therefore ranges extend far beyond your old 12 and eley impacts FACT

Sorry but as a postscript I just noticed your age.
With all due respect you need another 50 years or so of experience to talk authoratively on guns and cartridges. Whippersnapper

 

[tarponhead]

I use a mix, but 36g 4's in steel for duck is a high ass I need to go.