The Covid Vaccine Logic Makes No Sense At All?

Purely going on what what said to me by NHS staff member involved.
That’s interesting. I had a bad reaction to a flue jab in the early seventies which couldn’t be explained. At the time it was assumed to be not the active part but a reaction to something else in it, possibly albumen and I was warned never to have one again. Not allergic to eggs though.
 
It's behind you; see the relevant links in the presentations given by Professor Paul E Marik ( the one marked 'highly recommended) and Dr Hector Carvallo's presentations in #43.

It's great to hear you have objectivity in what I am posting, do please find the time to hear especially Prof Marik, and also as to the practical demonstrations of Ivermectin's efficacy in the prevention of infection of invaluable health workers in Buenos Aires by Dr Carvallo; I would respectfully argue that our own NHS staff are of equal import, along with our own fight against Covid-19 here: we simply cannot afford to overlook or otherwise ignore their findings any longer.
On first glance the figures quoted would support its use but as far as I can see all the studies quoted are not randomised or controlled. This means that the results are open to both selection and observer bias. The studies are small in number with often only a few hundreds included.
What is needed is a true randomised controlled trial involving a few thousand recipients in each age and sex matched group. If this shows a response then it’s worth trying until then it could be hydroxychloroquine all over again.
 
On first glance the figures quoted would support its use but as far as I can see all the studies quoted are not randomised or controlled. This means that the results are open to both selection and observer bias. The studies are small in number with often only a few hundreds included.
What is needed is a true randomised controlled trial involving a few thousand recipients in each age and sex matched group. If this shows a response then it’s worth trying until then it could be hydroxychloroquine all over again.
Take the time you feel appropriate, there are a number of randomised and controlled studies, believe me - I know you should not and won't - but I've checked. Nor is it 'another HCQ', see the research findings.

I'm personally unconcerned whether you want to put one of the safest, most used medicines on the planet through whatever further trials you wish to conduct and for whatever possible reasons, nobody is going anywhere soon after all, and having already taken my FDA/WHO approved medicine, albeit in 'unconventional' form, I'm confident that I'll personally neither be shedding virus and thus contributing to the problem in the interim. Thus I am first and foremost doing no harm, something that cannot truthfully be said of the current advice.

A lot of very fine minds globally have contributed positively to the effort thus far, and I see nothing whatsoever to refute what any of these protagonists are finding, and saying and publishing in their findings as regards the positive effects of Ivermectin in preventing and treating Covid-19 in all its stages. Personally, I read, I understand, and thereafter I decide to take responsibility for my own health, not something I wish to delegate to either government, vaccine makers of as yet unproven efficacy in respect of the changing virus strains, nor, perhaps understandably, cautious medical professionals seeking to further pontificate as to whether the great many smaller scale (largely unfunded) trials which are of sufficient merit, when the results of same are accumulated and aggregated to show an overwhelming body of evidence to rational, objective lay persons such as myself and others can observe and draw our own conclusions, but I'll happily consider any contradictory evidence as you may be able to unearth. FYI, the FDA also approve the use of Ivermectin, they are just a bit unhappy to think of people being able to care for themselves without medical supervision/oversight/control/payment, call it as you see best.

I'm aware of the potential for serious adverse interactions with certain medicine types (4 known) of Ivermectin, happily none of these apply to myself. There is a great deal more I have personally looked into as regards Ivermectin, and found to be of great interest and further confirmed my convictions as to its suitability and efficacy in preventing the reproduction of cytokines, Nitric oxides, and its other means of basically beating the virus. Much of it is pretty dry stuff, of course, and I have therefore abbreviated most of my posts in recognition of this.

I am very happy most of all that I am not prevented by others in taking responsibility for my own health choices, particularly with regard to the current situation, and what I regard as the deeply flawed strategy being pursued by the government and NHS for dealing with cases - the 'wait, wait, oops - too late' strategy, which seems to be otherwise meekly accepted by rather too many unfortunate 'believers' that entrust their health to a doubtless well meaning, hard worked government and NHS, but to practitioners and carers at every level of health care who are possibly less well read on the aspects I've sought to bring forward.

Belief is a very personal thing, and as you may infer, I am rather more of an 'inquiring mind'-type of potential patient as oppose to a blindly obedient one, i.e. not a 'doctor-always-knows-best' type. I don't believe government is presently acting in the best possible interests of the country in the aspects of their coping strategy, nor in their prevention of spread measures, which place rather too great trust on the population at large doing what is required, as opposed to what they will, eg clandestine wedding parties, secret get togethers, errant positive tested people and politicians carrying on regardless, etc. It is the nature of man and woman to think they know best, these examples are testament to this, as indeed are you and I, respectfully at some odds as to the best way forward; time will serve to show whether my instinct based upon the research I've done for my own curiosity will be a wise decision or not, but I can assure you, as to my recent self-treatment, I feel fine, and am wholly confident in my decision being the right one for me and my loved ones, again based upon the findings of those very fine minds who have applied their efforts almost exclusively to the problem these past ten months.

I'm aware too, of the implications of the governments health strategy being found wanting, but I won't be accepting a 'who knew' defence, when the inquiry eventually concludes. The prescription of Ivermectin as an effective prophylaxis and/or treatment for Covid-19 may appear to conventionally-minded but as yet (in my view) not up-to-speed medical practitioners to be 'unconventional', possibly cutting edge, but it most certainly is not bleeding-edge; for an independent-minded deer stalker in the wilds of Grampian, that is my starting point, I am not prepared at this later stage to wait any longer for someone else to do the required reading and to 'okay' that which I can determine for myself.

Oh, and I've taken the liberty of running these matters past my retired gastro-enterologist-and my retired consultant surgeon friends and my currently practicing GP stalking chum, all seemed rather convinced, too, as you say, at first glance. One of them has taken up cudgels internally in the Health Board, suggesting that we should be acting upon the information emanating 'from the experts, via the glen'.
 
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Ok basic virus infections for dummies.

a virus is a protein capsule and within that is a piece of genetic material which codes to make more viruses. This is usually DNA but can be RNA, that but is not relevant. The virus enters the body and moves to its target area, this is dependent on the virus. Colds go to the upper airways but hepatitis would go to the liver. Once there it enters the cell and uses the cells internal mechanisms to replicate more of itself, these then spread to other cells and so an infection starts. Once the viral load hits a certain level the bodies immune system recognises there is some thing wrong and mounts an acute response by trying to attack the virus and stimulating the production of antibodies. This takes a period of time of hours to days so there is a period when the virus numbers are increasing and shedding before the body combats this. This is called the infectious period and varies from virus to virus. Once the infection comes under control the body switches to memory cell production so that if the virus is encountered again antibodies can be produced rapidly thereby neutralising the virus BEFORE it replicates enough to cause an infection. THIS is where the vaccine comes in. It causes the immune system to activate snd produce memory cells so that if you come in contact with the virus again you can mount a response and never get to the infectious period which then reduces the spread.
As you say having the vaccine doesn’t stop you coming in contact with the virus but will reduce the chance of you becoming infected so that you spread it on. THIS is the principle of herd immunity.
See what the NHS and Prof . Van Tam have had to say on the subject , you may care to reconsider your comments Covid: Vaccinated people may spread virus, says Van-Tam - BBC News
 
See what the NHS and Prof . Van Tam have had to say on the subject , you may care to reconsider your comments Covid: Vaccinated people may spread virus, says Van-Tam - BBC News
Vaccination doesn’t give 100% protection but give a significant protection. What Prof Van Tam is referring to is the behaviour of people after vaccination. This is not the golden bullet that will return us to normal, rather a help in controlling the virus to manageable levels.
one of the major reasons that 1200 people are dying each day is because of the behaviour of individuals not the level of vaccination. Once you have been vaccinated you still need to behave appropriately and follow the rules. You are still in lock down even after vaccination.
 
Vaccination doesn’t give 100% protection but give a significant protection. What Prof Van Tam is referring to is the behaviour of people after vaccination. This is not the golden bullet that will return us to normal, rather a help in controlling the virus to manageable levels.
one of the major reasons that 1200 people are dying each day is because of the behaviour of individuals not the level of vaccination. Once you have been vaccinated you still need to behave appropriately and follow the rules. You are still in lock down even after vaccination.
Agreed, but what do you say to say, a safe, cheap, readily available medicine that prevents shedding of the viral load of people who will not behave in the prescribed manner: would this offer a possible additional benefit in combatting the spread, or would make no difference, in your view?

Is it not the case that they are dying because their bodies succumb to the onslaught brought on by the virus reproducing rapidly, resulting in their immune system fighting so much that it causes more damage to the body, ( the cytokine storm) and were it the case that if the reproduction of these harmful triggering agents within the body were halted, this would help the recovery of the patient?
 
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Agreed, but what do you say to say, a safe, cheap, readily available medicine that prevents shedding of the viral load of people who will not behave in the prescribed manner: would this offer a possible additional benefit in combatting the spread, or would make no difference, in your view?

Is it not the case that they are dying because their bodies succumb to the onslaught brought on by the virus reproducing rapidly, resulting in their immune system fighting so much that it causes more damage to the body, ( the cytokine storm) and were it the case that if the reproduction of these harmful triggering agents within the body were halted, this would help the recovery of the patient?
Difficult to extrapolate all you are claiming from present know facts. As with the 12 week interval for vaccine it is based on supposition not fact.
we know that this disease causes problems with blocking small blood vessels. This seems to occur a few days after initial infectivity and is probably multi factorial which explains the difference in outcomes even within family groups. There is little doubt that this late phase inflammation is the cause of most of the morbidity and mortality seen.
Im not discounting is use just that there needs to be properly conducted RCT which would satisfy all drug regulatory bodies before I would be willing to prescribe it.
We are after all supposed to be Evidenced based in our practice.
 
Don't worry, you did your best and that is all you can do. He might not have survived if it had happened as he walked through a quiet A & E department. I have done two 50% success ratio and the success was the second. You may get lucky next time! Though joking apart I hope you don't have to again, very high stress situation.

David.
Thank you David, I keep thinking if....only..., but as some of site members have indicated the success rate is not good, but you do what you do in the hope that your efforts are the exception to the failures!!

Patrick
 
Patrick.... I've been to too many cardiac arrests over the years, the vast majority were in hospital and the vast majority were unsuccessful, some ended up with a patient with a hypoxic brain injury which can be a life sentence for the family, many ended up with fractured ribs and a very small number recovered well and promptly with the use of a defib in an appropriate way!
The family of your casualty will have been grateful that you tried your best to save a loved one and they would have been reassured that someone was with him/her at a time of need - whereas there's always a load of bystanders giving "expert" advice. And if you were needed as a witness in a fiscal/coroner court, you could stand and say I did what I could and give some comfort to the family. You should be proud of your actions.
 
just read on here a guy said he,s had covid and he was ok, he does need the vaccine, my mates uncle had covid 19 in sep 2020 he was ok, he got it again, guess what? they had his funeral 2 weeks ago bs
 
Difficult to extrapolate all you are claiming from present know facts. As with the 12 week interval for vaccine it is based on supposition not fact.
we know that this disease causes problems with blocking small blood vessels. This seems to occur a few days after initial infectivity and is probably multi factorial which explains the difference in outcomes even within family groups. There is little doubt that this late phase inflammation is the cause of most of the morbidity and mortality seen.
Im not discounting is use just that there needs to be properly conducted RCT which would satisfy all drug regulatory bodies before I would be willing to prescribe it.
We are after all supposed to be Evidenced based in our practice.
Well I certainly cannot make you believe Dr Sayed's explanation of how Ivermectin functions in blocking the virus from getting into the cells, and thus preventing the cause of the inflammation but am I right in thinking you are personally and/or professionally not persuaded by his explanation?
 
Well I certainly cannot make you believe Dr Sayed's explanation of how Ivermectin functions in blocking the virus from getting into the cells, and thus preventing the cause of the inflammation but am I right in thinking you are personally and/or professionally not persuaded by his explanation?
Because it’s an experimental study in vitro. There is no robust peer reviewed evidence it happens in life (in Vivo) hence the need for a properly constructed Randomised Controlled Trial (RCT).
 
Talking to medical friends and colleagues. There is plenty that the medical profession can do to people who become infected with Covid to prevent them becoming ill. A simple course of steroids - like they gave Trump - flattens it.

I had a check upcall with my Doctor for long Covid. She would like to be able to give me such drugs, but because I am not ill enough to be in hospital NHS is not allowing doctors in the UK to use their clinical experience to use such drugs for treatment of Covid. They are also finding that those treated in hospital have many fewer long term symptoms.

Re the Vaccine, politically this is seen as the saviour and it is being pushed very hard and rather glossing over the fact that our death rate is utterly appalling.

And focusing on just giving first dose makes no sense. It’s a bit put on an undercoat and not putting on the topcoat, or putting on a fleece and giving you the waterproof shell - yes the fleece keeps you warm, and some protection from a shower, but in any rain and snow you need the outer shell to shed the water off.

Or with a vaccine - first dose starts building the immune response and gives some protection once the virus gets in. 2nd dose gives you the ability to smack the virus very hard as soon as it lands you and never gets the chance to establish itself. In other words time you are infected is much shorter than if you have had only one dose.

But doesn’t give headline numbers for Daily Mail readers.
 
Because it’s an experimental study in vitro. There is no robust peer reviewed evidence it happens in life (in Vivo) hence the need for a properly constructed Randomised Controlled Trial (RCT).
So you don't see Dr Carvallo's trial and results with 800 health workers over three hospitals in BA as an in vivo study? The one where zero of the health workers treated with the prophylactic combination succumbed to the virus?

Presumably you would also be disinclined to accept the work of Dr Pierre Kory, Professor Paul Marik and the FLCCC alliance, who have submitted their work to the NIH and prompted them to change their view from 'against' to neutral, i.e. leaving the decision whether or not to prescribe it to the doctor concerned?
 
And of course Logic, Sense, Good Science and Government Policy are words that cannot be used in the same document let alone the same sentence.

The last sentence of above paragraph is the only place where the words can be used together.
 
Talking to medical friends and colleagues. There is plenty that the medical profession can do to people who become infected with Covid to prevent them becoming ill. A simple course of steroids - like they gave Trump - flattens it.

I had a check upcall with my Doctor for long Covid. She would like to be able to give me such drugs, but because I am not ill enough to be in hospital NHS is not allowing doctors in the UK to use their clinical experience to use such drugs for treatment of Covid. They are also finding that those treated in hospital have many fewer long term symptoms.

Re the Vaccine, politically this is seen as the saviour and it is being pushed very hard and rather glossing over the fact that our death rate is utterly appalling.

And focusing on just giving first dose makes no sense. It’s a bit put on an undercoat and not putting on the topcoat, or putting on a fleece and giving you the waterproof shell - yes the fleece keeps you warm, and some protection from a shower, but in any rain and snow you need the outer shell to shed the water off.

Or with a vaccine - first dose starts building the immune response and gives some protection once the virus gets in. 2nd dose gives you the ability to smack the virus very hard as soon as it lands you and never gets the chance to establish itself. In other words time you are infected is much shorter than if you have had only one dose.

But doesn’t give headline numbers for Daily Mail readers.
What would be the harm in considering taking Ivermectin as a treatment for your long Covid, as recommended by the doctors advocating such a course of action?
 
What would be the harm in considering taking Ivermectin as a treatment for your long Covid, as recommended by the doctors advocating such a course of action?
Minimal- but NHS Scotland is in a perfect storm where only Covid Doctors can prescribe Covid treatment and they only dealing with critically ill in hospital. GPs are not being allowed to treat Covid in the community and its taken three months to get a referral to ME, Long Covid support group. Meantime taking the dog forca short walk feels like walking on top of Alps and am needing to sleep 12+ hours a day.

multiply my experience by all those who also suffering by loss of production and thus loss of tax revenue and compare with cost of simple treatment which are being used elsewhere in the world.
 
Minimal- but NHS Scotland is in a perfect storm where only Covid Doctors can prescribe Covid treatment and they only dealing with critically ill in hospital. GPs are not being allowed to treat Covid in the community and its taken three months to get a referral to ME, Long Covid support group. Meantime taking the dog forca short walk feels like walking on top of Alps and am needing to sleep 12+ hours a day.

multiply my experience by all those who also suffering by loss of production and thus loss of tax revenue and compare with cost of simple treatment which are being used elsewhere in the world.
Side step the blockage would be (i.e. is) my choice. Wishing you well, whatever you choose/are permitted to do.
 
I got told last week by my doc ,that he doesn,t recommend giving me steriods as it lowers your immune system and therefore more chance of catching covid.
 
So you don't see Dr Carvallo's trial and results with 800 health workers over three hospitals in BA as an in vivo study? The one where zero of the health workers treated with the prophylactic combination succumbed to the virus?
this is a non randomised trial with low numbers in each arm of the trial to be significant. Remember there were 20,000+ in the vaccine trials. Also knowing how this virus behaves and how infectious it is, to have a zero in one group is very unlikely. When it is too good to be true in Medicine it usually is. The world is full of people making claims on dodgy statistics which never come to things.
Im not discounting it just that there is no robust proof it works and I for one will not be suggesting my patients take it until there is.
if you want to swim in a bath of sheep dip fill your boots but I prefer the evidence based approach.
 
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